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I couldn't find any topics on this, so I'm assuming I'm either just missing something or the search function is crapping out. But as I can't seem to find the answer to this question for sure, here goes:

In 5th edition, when a unit had to take a Dangerous or Difficult terrain test during its charge move, it was forced to fight at Initiative 1 unless it had assault grenades. Units like Necron Canoptek Wraiths could still strike at their own initiative because they have a rule that says they are 'never slowed by Difficult Terrain, and automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests'. While (Jet)Bikes also weren't slowed by terrain, they treated all Difficult Terrain as Dangerous Terrain, thus had to take a Dangerous Terrain test and strike at Initiative 1 unless they had assault grenades.

Now comes 6th edition. The rule for charging through terrain now reads:
if at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit's models must attack at Initiative step 1 (Page 22)

And (Jet)Bikes say:
Bikes are never slowed by difficult terrain. (Page 45)

As the wording of the (Jet)Bike and Wraith rules are similar, and the requirement of a difficult/dangerous terrain test is changed, that leads to one of two possibilities:
- Either (Jet)Bikes now strike at their own Initiative when charging through difficult terrain.
- Or Canoptek Wraiths now no longer strike at their own Initiative when charging through difficult terrain, but at Initiative 1.

So the issue I have is whether or not the 'slowed by difficult terrain' includes the reducing of Initiative. You could argue being forced to strike at a lower initiative makes you slower I guess, but that's certainly not an airtight ruling. What's your call?

unless it has a rule about INI, then it strikes at I1. Beasts, Move Through Cover, etc... do not prevent it.

This is corerct:

"Canoptek Wraiths now no longer strike at their own Initiative when charging through difficult terrain, but at Initiative 1."

This is because the wraiths moved through the terrain, so they strike at I1

Fragile wrote:unless it has a rule about INI, then it strikes at I1. Beasts, Move Through Cover, etc... do not prevent it.

Ah, yes, what threw me off was the sizeable number of posts that were made during the 6th edition launch which claimed Beasts could strike at their own Initiative, which were stuck in my head. A quick search on Beasts turns out this is no longer the consensus. That clears things up, thanks.

Cannoptek wraiths are jump infantry not jetbikes.

As such, they can use their jump packs in the assault phase to avoid the Initiative penalty and gain the hammer of wrath attack(of course you have to walk 6" in the movement phase instead of Jumping 12")

Jet bikes do the same(with all moves).

The reason for this is the Skyborne special rule for Jump/Jet packs, and the basic movement rules for jetbikes. In both cases when moving they ignore all terrain and models between their start and end points.

If the enemy model charged is in difficult terrain they both take dangerous terrain tests for landing in difficult but are not reduced for moving through(because they didn't, they landed in).

Edit.. reading that rule.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Cannoptek wraiths are jump infantry not jetbikes.

As such, they can use their jump packs in the assault phase to avoid the Initiative penalty and gain the hammer of wrath attack(of course you have to walk 6" in the movement phase instead of Jumping 12")

Jet bikes do the same(with all moves).

The reason for this is the Skyborne special rule for Jump/Jet packs, and the basic movement rules for jetbikes. In both cases when moving they ignore all terrain and models between their start and end points.

If the enemy model charged is in difficult terrain they both take dangerous terrain tests for landing in difficult but are not reduced for moving through(because they didn't, they landed in).

Canoptek wraiths will "always" strike at I1 when assaulting into terrain. If they use their jump packs and end in terrain they "must" take a test which they pass, but they still had to test and that puts them at initiative 1. If they choose to walk through the terrain, while they aren't slowed by it, they still entered terrain and must strike at initiative 1 (the rules make NO reference to having to test, ONLY if you had to go through terrain). So, basically, either whip coils are a must or don't charge into terrain with them.

Kevin949 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Cannoptek wraiths are jump infantry not jetbikes.

As such, they can use their jump packs in the assault phase to avoid the Initiative penalty and gain the hammer of wrath attack(of course you have to walk 6" in the movement phase instead of Jumping 12")

Jet bikes do the same(with all moves).

The reason for this is the Skyborne special rule for Jump/Jet packs, and the basic movement rules for jetbikes. In both cases when moving they ignore all terrain and models between their start and end points.

If the enemy model charged is in difficult terrain they both take dangerous terrain tests for landing in difficult but are not reduced for moving through(because they didn't, they landed in).

Canoptek wraiths will "always" strike at I1 when assaulting into terrain. If they use their jump packs and end in terrain they "must" take a test which they pass, but they still had to test and that puts them at initiative 1. If they choose to walk through the terrain, while they aren't slowed by it, they still entered terrain and must strike at initiative 1 (the rules make NO reference to having to test, ONLY if you had to go through terrain). So, basically, either whip coils are a must or don't charge into terrain with them.

You are thinking of 5th edition, sir.

In 6th 1 or more models must assault through difficult terrain(as in actually move through); which is why Move through cover is of no benefit.

Ignoring the terrain as you pass over it is not moving through the terrain; otherwise Jump packs and Jetbikes in the movement phase would still have to take dangerous terrain tests for terrain they pass over(obviously landing in difficult still takes a dangerous).

Also Dangerous terrain that is not also difficult(somehow) is no longer a forced Init 1.

I just want to be upfront and say I'm not disagreeing with you Kel, just trying to find a firmer basis for this ruling.

Is there actually a rule that would support the idea that ending a move in terrain is not moving through it, or is it just a matter of applying logic and dictionary definitions?

The issue is on pg 47. The Skyborne rule. When using its jump pack (whether moving, charging or falling back) all model can move over all other models and terrain freely. I do not know if this counts as ignoring DT for the purposes of the INI or not, but I would say its no different than MTC or Beasts and they still strike at I1, other than their HoW attack.

Fragile wrote:The issue is on pg 47. The Skyborne rule. When using its jump pack (whether moving, charging or falling back) all model can move over all other models and terrain freely. I do not know if this counts as ignoring DT for the purposes of the INI or not, but I would say its no different than MTC or Beasts and they still strike at I1, other than their HoW attack.

Bolded the key word there. Over is not the same as through.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Also Dangerous terrain that is not also difficult(somehow) is no longer a forced Init 1.

Does that kind of terrain even exist anymore? The rules for dangerous terrain on page 90 say that all dangerous terrain follows the same rules as difficult terrain.

Also the table on page 147 seems to imply that JI are "moving through" difficult terrain as they have to roll 3D6 discarding the highest just like infantry who charge "through" difficult terrain.

Drunkspleen wrote:I just want to be upfront and say I'm not disagreeing with you Kel, just trying to find a firmer basis for this ruling.

Is there actually a rule that would support the idea that ending a move in terrain is not moving through it, or is it just a matter of applying logic and dictionary definitions?

Logic, definition, and precedent.

The precedent comes from page 90; Difficult terrain, where a distinction is made between Entering and Moving Within(referred to in the rule also as moving through).

The Jump/jet pack/Bikes never move within, they only enter.

Zenshin: I don't think so Dangerous is automatically difficult; but if a terrain piece in a special mission, agreed upon between players or declared by a TO to be dangerous but not difficult; then that would apply.

As for the second bit about the table; there is already been some contention about that, we are still waiting for the BRB FAQ to figure that out(Diagrams and tables have been wrong before and there are a few wrong in this book already).

Them having to make a dangerous terrain test would the the strongest argument that they are I1

On the matter of Dangerous Terrain, page 90 makes it clear: "Dangerous terrain follows all the rules for difficult terrain". Answer.

Through doesn't mean the same thing as entered. Through also doesn't mean over. A Jump Unit who jumps over Difficult Terrain in a charge and ends in base contact with a unit in difficult terrain they attack at normal initiative since the unit did not move through Difficult Terrain. They have to take a Dangerous Terrain test, but they would not have to suffer the Initiative penalty.

Even models who are not slowed down by Difficult Terrain suffer the penalty to their initiative because they moved through it. The rule just says moved through it and not slowed by it.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Cannoptek wraiths are jump infantry not jetbikes.

As such, they can use their jump packs in the assault phase to avoid the Initiative penalty and gain the hammer of wrath attack(of course you have to walk 6" in the movement phase instead of Jumping 12")

Jet bikes do the same(with all moves).

The reason for this is the Skyborne special rule for Jump/Jet packs, and the basic movement rules for jetbikes. In both cases when moving they ignore all terrain and models between their start and end points.

If the enemy model charged is in difficult terrain they both take dangerous terrain tests for landing in difficult but are not reduced for moving through(because they didn't, they landed in).

Canoptek wraiths will "always" strike at I1 when assaulting into terrain. If they use their jump packs and end in terrain they "must" take a test which they pass, but they still had to test and that puts them at initiative 1. If they choose to walk through the terrain, while they aren't slowed by it, they still entered terrain and must strike at initiative 1 (the rules make NO reference to having to test, ONLY if you had to go through terrain). So, basically, either whip coils are a must or don't charge into terrain with them.

You are thinking of 5th edition, sir.

In 6th 1 or more models must assault through difficult terrain(as in actually move through); which is why Move through cover is of no benefit.

Ignoring the terrain as you pass over it is not moving through the terrain; otherwise Jump packs and Jetbikes in the movement phase would still have to take dangerous terrain tests for terrain they pass over(obviously landing in difficult still takes a dangerous).

Also Dangerous terrain that is not also difficult(somehow) is no longer a forced Init 1.

No, I wasn't thinking of 5th. Dangerous terrain is also difficult (pg 428 & 90). I also was referencing assaulting "into" terrain, not through it. As you said, as long as you can clear the terrain you aren't affected by it, but if even 1 model ends their turn in it then you're boned.


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Captain Antivas wrote:On the matter of Dangerous Terrain, page 90 makes it clear: "Dangerous terrain follows all the rules for difficult terrain". Answer.

Through doesn't mean the same thing as entered. Through also doesn't mean over. A Jump Unit who jumps over Difficult Terrain in a charge and ends in base contact with a unit in difficult terrain they attack at normal initiative since the unit did not move through Difficult Terrain. They have to take a Dangerous Terrain test, but they would not have to suffer the Initiative penalty.

Even models who are not slowed down by Difficult Terrain suffer the penalty to their initiative because they moved through it. The rule just says moved through it and not slowed by it.

They wouldn't have to take a DT if they didn't start or end their turn in the dangerous terrain. As Kel said, Skyborne allows them to move over all terrain and models freely, this would include assaulting with their jump packs (as it states in the rule for jump units).

Kevin; you are referencing having to make a test as being the requirement for Init 1; this is not the case in 6th.

In 6th it is a Flat assaulting through difficult(and thus also dangerous) terrain that lands you with init1.

Jump troops and Jet bikes assault-landing into difficult terrain is not moving through the terrain, it is entering; and the fact that they had to take any sort of test does not matter.

The Jump Infantry part seems pretty open and shut.

I'm not convinced on Jetbikes. They're description of Assault doesn't say anything about moving over terrain or referencing their Movement phase movement. It only says they aren't slowed by difficult terrain, whereas the Jump Assault phase movement clearly says they move over terrain when using their jump pack.

Back on the original topic then: Wraiths are Jump Infantry. So if they use their jump pack in the Assault phase, they'll swing at Initiative 2 even if there's difficult terrain in the way.

DarknessEternal wrote:The Jump Infantry part seems pretty open and shut.

I'm not convinced on Jetbikes. They're description of Assault doesn't say anything about moving over terrain or referencing their Movement phase movement. It only says they aren't slowed by difficult terrain, whereas the Jump Assault phase movement clearly says they move over terrain when using their jump pack.

Back on the original topic then: Wraiths are Jump Infantry. So if they use their jump pack in the Assault phase, they'll swing at Initiative 2 even if there's difficult terrain in the way.

If you look at the "jetbikes, models and terrain" they have the same wording as JI, they move over models and terrain freely.

And hey, it's nice to know that my wraiths, D.lord, and praetorians will get their sweet cool I2 when assaulting into terrain now. Well, when assaulting with their jump pack equivalents.

Looking at the rules, I dont see the support for jump infantry, etc ignoring the I1. In either case they are required to make a DT test which would signal DT and I1. I think their rule more applies to the picture on pg 22, where they could possibly jump over that terrain and not have to make a roll there, because they all could land in open terrain.

Kevin949 wrote:
If you look at the "jetbikes, models and terrain" they have the same wording as JI, they move over models and terrain freely.

Yes, but that's in their Movement phase rules. Their assault phase rules don't say anything about moving over terrain. Jump Infantry Assault phase movement rules say to use their Skyborne rules, which is what allows them to move over terrain.


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Fragile wrote:Looking at the rules, I dont see the support for jump infantry, etc ignoring the I1. In either case they are required to make a DT test which would signal DT and I1.

Yes, they have to make a Dangerous Terrain test for ending their move in difficult terrain. The rules specifically say their jump pack move goes over terrain and not through it though. So they've never gone through difficult terrain to be forced to I1.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:
If you look at the "jetbikes, models and terrain" they have the same wording as JI, they move over models and terrain freely.

Yes, but that's in their Movement phase rules. Their assault phase rules don't say anything about moving over terrain. Jump Infantry Assault phase movement rules say to use their Skyborne rules, which is what allows them to move over terrain.

It says 'Movement', not 'Movement phase' like Jump units though. Moving when assaulting is still movement. If you rule Jump Infantry to not be reduced in penalty, by the same logic Jetbikes would neither, as they 'always move over all other models and all terrain freely'.

But reading the other replies makes it clear there is no strict consensus. I hope they FAQ this soon.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:
If you look at the "jetbikes, models and terrain" they have the same wording as JI, they move over models and terrain freely.

Yes, but that's in their Movement phase rules. Their assault phase rules don't say anything about moving over terrain. Jump Infantry Assault phase movement rules say to use their Skyborne rules, which is what allows them to move over terrain.

The reason for the mention in the skyborne rule is because that type of movement is situational and decided by the controller. The jetbike "Always" moves as a jetbike and "always" moves over models and terrain. Assault moves are no exception, it is still movement.

Yeah, Jetbikes are "Always Move" not "In the movement phase" or "when moving in the movement phase".

Any time a Jetbike is called upon to move for anyreason, they use the Jetbikes, Models and Terrain rules.

Otherwise Turboboosting would have to abide terrain rules, not the Jet bikes rules. And that would cause a Jet bike within 3" of a large piece of difficult terrain to roll 2d6 and that would be their turboboost range(they couldn't follow the bikes disregard for difficult as clear with a dangerous test because they have their own rules for movement so would default to basic rules).

I don't have my book in front of me, but wraiths have wraith flight allowing them to ignore the effects of difficult terrain and auto pass dangerous terrain tests.

thedunator wrote:I don't have my book in front of me, but wraiths have wraith flight allowing them to ignore the effects of difficult terrain and auto pass dangerous terrain tests.

Not ignore the effects, they are not Slowed and auto pass dangerous.

They move at their normal speed through terrain, but are still moving through unless they use their jump in the Assault phase instead of movement(and with the re-roll + Hammer of wrath, why wouldn't you?).

thedunator wrote:I don't have my book in front of me, but wraiths have wraith flight allowing them to ignore the effects of difficult terrain and auto pass dangerous terrain tests.

That's right, which means when they're walking through terrain they don't have to take a test. But if they assault through terrain without using their packs then they still moved through terrain and strike at I1. They don't "ignore" anything, they are simply not slowed by it. Which now means they take a standard assault test instead of 3d6 pick the lowest. But that isn't the prerequisite anymore for striking at I1 when assaulting through terrain.

Now if they use their jump packs to end their assault move in terrain they get to go at I2 because they didn't move "through" terrain, they moved over it but ended their move in terrain. Which is not a prerequisite for striking at I1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

thedunator wrote:I don't have my book in front of me, but wraiths have wraith flight allowing them to ignore the effects of difficult terrain and auto pass dangerous terrain tests.

Not ignore the effects, they are not Slowed and auto pass dangerous.

They move at their normal speed through terrain, but are still moving through unless they use their jump in the Assault phase instead of movement(and with the re-roll + Hammer of wrath, why wouldn't you?).

Because sometimes the 12" move before assault is needed more than the reroll of the 2d6. I kinda hate this random assault range business.

Thanks for clearing up my post.

Edit: cell phone post fail.

No worries, I'm still learning stuff about this new book just about every day as well.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Yeah, Jetbikes are "Always Move" not "In the movement phase" or "when moving in the movement phase".

Any time a Jetbike is called upon to move for anyreason, they use the Jetbikes, Models and Terrain rules.

Otherwise Turboboosting would have to abide terrain rules, not the Jet bikes rules.

Ah, you've convinced me. That makes sense.