Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

How has 6th edition changed your wargear selections for Grey Hunters? Has it affected your selection of Wolf Guard Pack Leaders at all?

I've had a few rough games lately. Grey Hunters are just melting to enemy fire. Its probably mostly just bad rolls on my part coupled with insane deployment. But I'm finding that:

1. Wolf Standards are as important as ever.
2. Mark of the Wulfen is as powerful as ever.
3. Another Power Weapon/Fist is not worth bringing on a normal Grey Hunter anymore
4. Wargear seems like it should be stacked on as few models as possible 90% of the time to limit losses from shooting (so have your Wolf Standard on a Mark of the Wulfen Meltagun toting model).
5. Wolf Guard in TDA are over-rated. You can't Look Out Sir! if you roll to save, and a 1 is too easy to roll. My current list has 3 TDA and I've rolled a 1 first 7 times in the last 3 games, and of one of the two times I didn't roll it first I rolled a one for the second roll. Could just be bad luck, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything for me.
6. Tied with 5, I'm finding that my Wolf Guard aren't doing anything for me. They don't live to get into combat if they are in the front of the squad. The only thing I've reliably been able to use is their Combi-Weapon, in which case I'd rather just be paying the 15 points for a 10th Grey Hunter and take a free special weapon. The Ld9 isn't even making a difference as the only times I need to take it I have a whole two models left that won't live long enough to make a difference anyways.

So I'm thinking of cutting some fat out of my loadout, but I'm worried that my despair with the Dice Gods is making me cut some muscle too. What are you guys seeing?

Are you foot slogging, drop podding, rhino or razorback?
I am finding the common set up rhino with a wolfguard from 5th edition working for me. However, I have found it harder to get them into assault so I may change my game plan, stupid nonassault rhinos.

With things sniping non-characters available all over the place, placing all those upgrades on a single non-character model is a risk that you need to be aware of. One shot of a Quadgun controlled by a character => ~40 points dead from the GH squad.

Currently, I run the hybrid Rhino + foot-slog.

Two Rhinos with 8 GH (Mark, Melta, Standard) + WG (PW, combi)
Two 10-man GH (Mark, dual Plasma, Standard) + TDA WG (SB + fist) foot slog with either outflanking Wolf Priest or Rune Priest.

This allows me to: hold objective, rush forward and outshoot people in mid field, out flank to take out backfield objectives/units, reroll 1s of those free plasmaguns . I see TDA WG as the awesome challenge taker.

cowmonaut wrote:
3. Another Power Weapon/Fist is not worth bringing on a normal Grey Hunter anymore

how do you come to that conclusion? I would belive a power axe on an wolf guard is what you will have to bring now since you cant get that sweet PF on the WG because of challenges?

5. Wolf Guard in TDA are over-rated. You can't Look Out Sir! if you roll to save

were do you find this? this is not how I have been playing and I want to play by the rules. the way I read the rules you will get the 4+ look out after the 2+ armour just like you would get FNP. can you direct me to page and paragraph or to a thread were they have come to this conclusion.



other than that Im sorry Im interested in others awnsers I cant really say I've figured this out myself either

leohart wrote:With things sniping non-characters available all over the place, placing all those upgrades on a single non-character model is a risk that you need to be aware of. One shot of a Quadgun controlled by a character => ~40 points dead from the GH squad.

Have you actually seen an opponent do this? I haven't seen a whole lot of fortifications, and usually I've been able to handle the emplacement on the ADL without too much trouble.

I haven't been seeing a lot of snipers either to be honest, though my usual Eldar opponent has commonly brought a lot of Rangers in 5th. Just haven't had an opportunity to try him in 6th.

It just seems that 5 casualties isn't such a tough order for some lists, and once you get past that you start losing wargear anyways, and that's a best case scenario.

leohart wrote:This allows me to: hold objective, rush forward and outshoot people in mid field, out flank to take out backfield objectives/units, reroll 1s of those free plasmaguns . I see TDA WG as the awesome challenge taker.

I'm not seeing this at all. 1 wound, and a 5+ Invulnerable. The things I'm having to deal with that are Characters are almost always ICs that can easily slaughter the Wolf Guard (Chaos Lords, Vect, etc). And that's if he even survives enemy shooting. Not sure using him to grab AP3 shots is really worthwhile. Definitely can't use him as a shield against bolter fire and expect him to walk away.

MFletch wrote:Are you foot slogging, drop podding, rhino or razorback?
I am finding the common set up rhino with a wolfguard from 5th edition working for me. However, I have found it harder to get them into assault so I may change my game plan, stupid nonassault rhinos.

Lately, Drop Pods. I have a full reserve list with IG allies that I'm experimenting with. Games have been close despite the dice's best effort, but I can't help feeling I'm spending some points in the wrong places. I hadn't thought I'd need to tweak my wargear selection, but now I'm not really liking a Power Weapon on a normal Grey Hunter and I'm finding I'm having trouble keeping them up as well as I did in 5th. Which is absurd because that didn't change really...

SlyasR wrote:

5. Wolf Guard in TDA are over-rated. You can't Look Out Sir! if you roll to save

were do you find this? this is not how I have been playing and I want to play by the rules. the way I read the rules you will get the 4+ look out after the 2+ armour just like you would get FNP. can you direct me to page and paragraph or to a thread were they have come to this conclusion.

It's pretty complicated. Read through the LoS! rules on p. 16, and the rules for allocating wounds on p.15. The gist is that LoS! occurs on allocation, which takes place at different stages depending on whether the unit has a mixed save or not.

Notice that in a mixed save unit, wounds are allocated (and LoS! is taken) before saves, but takes place when "unsaved wounds" are allocated, after saves, on a unit with one armour save.

This is simply to streamline the game and reduce needless rolls, but I'm not so hot at explaining such things, so I would ask others

Let me address these points from my personal experience:

I see quad-gun manned by characters all the time. Whether it is from a farseer with runes of warding sitting with rangers or Telion (which makes all hits precision shots), I have been losing guys left and right. Then there is the the time where I get into close combat and the mark of the wulfen guy got precision striked by the enemy character. I get it too many times now that I would rather have my stuff losing slowly. On average, it is more expectable to me than having a chance of losing an entire upgraded model to one shooting round of paladin. -_-

When I talked about the ability to hold objective, rush forward, ..., I was referring to a hybrid build with rhino, outflank and foot slog. My foot slog elements consists of 2 plasma gun GH with WG in TDA. They stand behind an Aegis defense line and keep on shooting at things that are trying to take my backfield objective. Sure, against things that are AP2 I2+ (MCs, ...), I don't take challenge unless in extreme circumstances. Against things that are AP3 (enemy MCs), I always take the challenge.

This 2x plasmagun + TDA WG can easily take on single beasts that used to be unbeated in 5th. Mephiston, Kharn, The Sanguinor, Wolf Lord with claws and Saga of Warrior Born, ... As long as I have my 10 guys cheering (allowing me to re-roll those failed 1s armour save), my WG will keep on tieing/winning. One time, I even manage to take out a Flying Tyrant charging me. All from a lowly 43 points TDA WG (granted, the flyrant only had two wounds left and I managed to wound him twice).

I am feeling the same pain as you. I have played 4 games since 6th came out. We have a small gaming group (4 family members) who play Tau, Sisters, BA and SW (me). When we team up we use the Allies rules for each army.

Game 1: 1v1v1v1 500pts each
I brought 2 9xGH + WG in Rhinos, it was an objective game. One rhino made it to an objective, the other was glanced to death by Fire Warriors. The GH's only stayed alive as long as they did because they hid behind the wrecked rhino. Then were assaulted by Dante and company who made short work of the survivors.

Game 2: 1v1v1v1 500pt Ea.
Tried smaller 5+1 GH squads w/o rhinos, they didn't take much fire because i had good positioning on my LF's. When i had one squad run for a objective it melted under BG/HB sister fire.

Game 3: 2v2 500ea (1000v1000) SW+Tau vs Sisters+BA
I used the same list as game 2, my GH's once again melted under Sister's fire and Celestine+ Seraphim fire.
I played for the game to end at turn 5 and had 2 GH squads on an objective (1 model left each) but rolled a 6...

Game 4: 2x2 750ea. (1500v1500) SW+BA vs Tau+Sisters
I went back to 2 9+1 GH/WG with Terminator armor + Wolf Priest and a Skyclaw with attached WG+Mark and Rune Priest with JP's.
Same freaking result, sisters shot the crap out of me before i got into assault range. WG with TDA rolled 1's at some point before assaulting. GH's and even the HQ's were shot down, skyclaws were at half strength when Celestine and company got to them (no charge on reserve turn...)

Overall my experience has been dont get shot at, at any cost. The BA's have been suffering the same fate as my GH's have. Power armor doesnt feel so powerful anymore. WG's have been a complete waste of space in my armies, the Ld9 hasn't been useful once. And even when the WG w/ TDA leads the pack in, they dont seem to make it into CC.

ohhnoez: You should try a higher point game, perhaps 1v1 1500 points each. At lower point cost, some armies are just way better than other.

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:

SlyasR wrote:

5. Wolf Guard in TDA are over-rated. You can't Look Out Sir! if you roll to save

were do you find this? this is not how I have been playing and I want to play by the rules. the way I read the rules you will get the 4+ look out after the 2+ armour just like you would get FNP. can you direct me to page and paragraph or to a thread were they have come to this conclusion.

It's pretty complicated. Read through the LoS! rules on p. 16, and the rules for allocating wounds on p.15. The gist is that LoS! occurs on allocation, which takes place at different stages depending on whether the unit has a mixed save or not.

Notice that in a mixed save unit, wounds are allocated (and LoS! is taken) before saves, but takes place when "unsaved wounds" are allocated, after saves, on a unit with one armour save.

This is simply to streamline the game and reduce needless rolls, but I'm not so hot at explaining such things, so I would ask others

Im sorry if this might be to much of a rule-debate but this is very very important to how you play your grey hunters so

this quotes are directly word for word from the BRB

page 15 sub-paragraph to "Mixed saves"

allocate wounds
First, allocate a wound from the wound pool to the enemy model closest to the firing unit.


Take saves & remove casualties
First of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16). If it fails, reduce that model's Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 wounds, remove it as a casualty

Continue allocating wounds to the closest model, taking saves and removing casualties until the wound pool is empty, or all models in the unit have been removed as casualties."

page 16 box Look out, sir

When a Wound (or unsaved wound) is allocated to one of your characters, and there is another model from the same unit within 6", he's allowed a look out, sir attempt. This represents...

So it is clear to me that

1 WG terminator
10 PA grey hunters

with the terminator in front who catches say 6 sucessfull "to wounds" from bolter bullets. you allocate a wound like it says on page 15 under allocating wound. wound is allocated so go to page 16 on LoS-rule and it says "when a wound is allocated..." so he can make the LoS-save.



So he roles 1 dice in average fails 1/2 of the times. when it is success it hits a grey hunters which can take a PA-save on 3+ and the failed will hit the terminator which will take a 2+ armour save.

so no, I've read it through, its still stable and legit to me

SlyasR wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:
3. Another Power Weapon/Fist is not worth bringing on a normal Grey Hunter anymore

how do you come to that conclusion? I would belive a power axe on an wolf guard is what you will have to bring now since you cant get that sweet PF on the WG because of challenges?

Just the way wound allocation works now, with it being closest to closest. Spreading out the wargear, you only have 5 models that are "acceptable" as losses. Its trivial to kill 5 marines via shooting, so by the time my I:1 Axes (my guys were modeled with 3 axes and 2 swords for my 5 GH squads when I made them in 5th) can attack they are already dead.

leohart wrote:Let me address these points from my personal experience:

I see quad-gun manned by characters all the time. Whether it is from a farseer with runes of warding sitting with rangers or Telion (which makes all hits precision shots), I have been losing guys left and right. Then there is the the time where I get into close combat and the mark of the wulfen guy got precision striked by the enemy character. I get it too many times now that I would rather have my stuff losing slowly. On average, it is more expectable to me than having a chance of losing an entire upgraded model to one shooting round of paladin. -_-

Telion would potentially be a pain. The SM player I deal with most often doesn't use him though. Or didn't. He was having too much fun with 10 TH/SS Termies and Shrike. I guess people here just aren't using characters on the emplacement, and the few times they have I've been able to take out the emplacement pretty easily. The dice are fickle for me of late I suppose.

leohart wrote:When I talked about the ability to hold objective, rush forward, ..., I was referring to a hybrid build with rhino, outflank and foot slog. My foot slog elements consists of 2 plasma gun GH with WG in TDA. They stand behind an Aegis defense line and keep on shooting at things that are trying to take my backfield objective. Sure, against things that are AP2 I2+ (MCs, ...), I don't take challenge unless in extreme circumstances. Against things that are AP3 (enemy MCs), I always take the challenge.

This 2x plasmagun + TDA WG can easily take on single beasts that used to be unbeated in 5th. Mephiston, Kharn, The Sanguinor, Wolf Lord with claws and Saga of Warrior Born, ... As long as I have my 10 guys cheering (allowing me to re-roll those failed 1s armour save), my WG will keep on tieing/winning. One time, I even manage to take out a Flying Tyrant charging me. All from a lowly 43 points TDA WG (granted, the flyrant only had two wounds left and I managed to wound him twice).

Mephiston, Kharn, Sanguinar... Those guys don't worry me. Things like Vect worry me. Or Chaos Lords. Or other models that are in a squad of power armored bodies. I don't end up having a whole lot of models cheering me on, and again it comes back to a 5+ save. Other sergeant types aren't a problem. They aren't what my guys roll into anyways.

I think I'm just being too ballsy with trying to use the 2+ save to shield my Grey Hunters from enemy fire. The TDA isn't absorbing as much as I expect and is getting 1's with surprising frequency. I may just drop the TDA and take another Grey Hunter instead.

leohart wrote:ohhnoez: You should try a higher point game, perhaps 1v1 1500 points each. At lower point cost, some armies are just way better than other.

@ohhnoez: Definitely this. In smaller games some armies just dominate. For example, 500 point games with Orks tend to favor Orks a lot more than Space Marines or Eldar I find. A Warboss and two 30 boy Mobs tends to be too much for most to kill.

I will definitely give it a shot then, we usually do a 4up or a 2v2 because we all get together and play once a week or so and only have one board. We will try to play a 1k each game this coming week.

cowmonaut wrote:

SlyasR wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:
3. Another Power Weapon/Fist is not worth bringing on a normal Grey Hunter anymore

how do you come to that conclusion? I would belive a power axe on an wolf guard is what you will have to bring now since you cant get that sweet PF on the WG because of challenges?

Just the way wound allocation works now, with it being closest to closest. Spreading out the wargear, you only have 5 models that are "acceptable" as losses. Its trivial to kill 5 marines via shooting, so by the time my I:1 Axes (my guys were modeled with 3 axes and 2 swords for my 5 GH squads when I made them in 5th) can attack they are already dead.

Of course he can be killed in shooting, the WG can be killed as well, but we need some form of AP2, put him in the middle of the unit and hope he isnt sniped

its the same with mark of wulfen by the way so by that logic you shouldnt have anything like that

SlyasR wrote:QUOTE REMOVED TO KILL A WALL'O'TEXT

Yup, you're exactly right, that's how it works However, what I believe the person you were replying to was saying was that you cannot use the Wolf Guard's 2+ save and then allocate after taking that save, unless the whole unit has a 2+ save.

So you can't use him to increase the effective armour save until you fail a LoS!, which is how many people play it, incorrectly

If you want, PM me and we can discuss this more, but you're playing it right, from what you wrote

SlyasR wrote:Of course he can be killed in shooting, the WG can be killed as well, but we need some form of AP2, put him in the middle of the unit and hope he isnt sniped

its the same with mark of wulfen by the way so by that logic you shouldnt have anything like that

Eh, not how i see it. MotW is a force multiplier. Getting double the attacks can be nice. More to the point, thats just one model. Its easier to hide one model. My problem is, fully decked out like I built them, I only have 5 "expendable" models. Kind of hard to avoid important ones from dying when half the squad is valuable, know what i mean? Those models are all 25 or 30 points and are easily taken out first.

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:Yup, you're exactly right, that's how it works However, what I believe the person you were replying to was saying was that you cannot use the Wolf Guard's 2+ save and then allocate after taking that save, unless the whole unit has a 2+ save.

So you can't use him to increase the effective armour save until you fail a LoS!, which is how many people play it, incorrectly

This. The TDA is cool for its own reasons, but you cant actually use it to absorb massed laguns or anything like that. You'll just lose the termie.

I think I'm stuck with TDA just from a collection perspective. To fit 'em in pods I have to drop the Plasma Gun and another model to take 'em. And I don't have many WG in power armor to be honest. But /shrug


My main point is I think vanilla marines have it easier, with only 2 or 3 models out of 10 to worry about. You can bubble wrap the important models more easily.

10 GH
2x plasma
1x standard
1x TDA WG leader, SS/power axe
worked like a charm for me. TDA took a number of normal and invul saves before dieing. I used two squads, only lost one leader.

Mine come down in drop pods

Termi GH - P-fist, combi melta
GH - Plasma gun
GH - MOTW
GH - power weapon
GH - Banner
GH (x4) stock

I like spreading out all my war gear. I see a lot of unit leaders like mine. If the leader gets that 6 with his melta/plasma/darklight whatever weapon - he can remove the most dangerous model in the target unit. I don't want to give him the easy choice.

I also like the power weapon on my GH guy, because here is a guy who cannot be challenged out of the combat. His swings will always get to go. I was concidering making it a power axe, but with FC no longer getting the bonus to initiative, I think its important to have him swinging at initiative.

As for the WG with termi armor, it sounds just like bad luck that yours is dying so quickly. I've seen 8 shots bounce off his 2+ save before falling. Probably saved the life of two or more squad members (rolled 2s on the save). Also in HTH if you pop the banner, its almost like having an ability to just shrug off an entire round of damage.

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:

SlyasR wrote:QUOTE REMOVED TO KILL A WALL'O'TEXT

Yup, you're exactly right, that's how it works However, what I believe the person you were replying to was saying was that you cannot use the Wolf Guard's 2+ save and then allocate after taking that save, unless the whole unit has a 2+ save.

So you can't use him to increase the effective armour save until you fail a LoS!, which is how many people play it, incorrectly

If you want, PM me and we can discuss this more, but you're playing it right, from what you wrote

Ok no then im on track again, thank you

Jayden63 wrote:Mine come down in drop pods

Termi GH - P-fist, combi melta
GH - Plasma gun
GH - MOTW
GH - power weapon
GH - Banner
GH (x4) stock

I like spreading out all my war gear. I see a lot of unit leaders like mine. If the leader gets that 6 with his melta/plasma/darklight whatever weapon - he can remove the most dangerous model in the target unit. I don't want to give him the easy choice.

I also like the power weapon on my GH guy, because here is a guy who cannot be challenged out of the combat. His swings will always get to go. I was concidering making it a power axe, but with FC no longer getting the bonus to initiative, I think its important to have him swinging at initiative.

As for the WG with termi armor, it sounds just like bad luck that yours is dying so quickly. I've seen 8 shots bounce off his 2+ save before falling. Probably saved the life of two or more squad members (rolled 2s on the save). Also in HTH if you pop the banner, its almost like having an ability to just shrug off an entire round of damage.

I have the same setup for my drop pod coming in. I also agree, popping banner and your next assault phase is going to be full of awesomeness.