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Here is my basic stratagy for chalanges. What are your oppinions.

For the Assaulter:
You issue/accept a chalange when when you are afraid your character with the unit will kill off the entire unit in your turn. That is the hero will die but your unit alone can not kill them all.

You decline a challange when you think that your unit and your character will kill off both the character and enemy unit in your turn.

This is just a new version of making sure you are still in combat on your opponent's shooting phase.

For the Defender:
Now if your the unit being charged you have to decide if you think about how to make the combat end on your opponents turn. If you know your unit is going to get wiped out in your close combat phase then do everything you can to have it die in the charge. That way you can shoot it and then charge it with somehting that can kill it when your turn comes around.

So If you know that only the other character acting with his unit can wipe out your unit, decline the challange. That way they can wipe you out and be exposed on your turn.



It takes some time learning to balance things like that, but once you figure it out your game gets a lot better. Alway manage challanges so that you are certain that you are in CC in their shooting phase and able to move, shoot and charge again in yours.

Almost always.

As an attacker, it allows you to get your highest-damage-dealing model to attack your opponent's most expensive model. The only exception to this is if the only things worth challenging aren't substantially different than the rest of the squad, like a sergeant with nothing but a pistol and chainsword. In that case, it would be better to throw your killing power on the rest of the squad.

As a defender, the same as above applies, except that you also have the ability to use a worthless sergeant to block up some of your opponent's killing power.

As for when to deny a challenge. Never. It makes the unit count as dead that round, and it's unlikely you're going to have all that many close combats last longer than a round (and have all possible challengers survive).

Ailaros wrote:Almost always.

As an attacker, it allows you to get your highest-damage-dealing model to attack your opponent's most expensive model. The only exception to this is if the only things worth challenging aren't substantially different than the rest of the squad, like a sergeant with nothing but a pistol and chainsword. In that case, it would be better to throw your killing power on the rest of the squad.

So as an attacker with lets say the Swarmlord and 3 tyrant guard with lash whips (sorry going with what I know). You charge a unit of 5 tactical marines with a sargent. Would you chalange the sargent? Would you accept that sargents challange? Would your answer change if it was a unit of tactical terminators with a sargent?

As a defender, the same as above applies, except that you also have the ability to use a worthless sergeant to block up some of your opponent's killing power.

So again with the the Swarmlord and guard vs. 5 tactical marines. You would still issue a challange? If you were challanged would you decline?

As for when to deny a challenge. Never. It makes the unit count as dead that round, and it's unlikely you're going to have all that many close combats last longer than a round (and have all possible challengers survive).

Count as dead? (I assume you mean not attack).

The point is that sometimes you WANT the model to not attack. If I take my eliet unit into CC and I can play with how many attacks and wounds my unit inflicts or recives I can structure the odds to make it more likely that I can prolong combat when I want it to be prolonged or shorten it if I want it to end quicker.

If you always issue and accept chalanges you run the risk of exposing yourself to being shot at in your opponets turn or having your opponet locked into CC in your turn.

The only characters I have are two Tervigons, a flyrant and either a walking Tyrant or the Swarmlord.

With the Swarmlord? I would accept a challenge from any character in the game. With a better than 2/3 chance of getting iron arm, and probably Warp speed as well, he'll kill units. No way I would decline a challenge, thats a waste of killing power! But Id issue if I was alone, almost always.

With Tervigons, Id almost always issue a challenge unless the sarge has no upgrades at all, in which case Id just hit the unit. But if he has a fist or meltabombs, I ll challenge him for one round, kill him, and then kill the squad in later turns.

With Tyrants: If he's my Flyrant Id challenge unless Draigo or somethings in there, and even then I would if I had Iron Arm/Warp Speed. Again, if he has a weapon that can hurt me, challenge and kill it. If my Walking Tyrant, Id accept anything just about. 2+ is better than most, and I'll hit before almost every Ap. 2 weapon out there.

Never decline, unless you have massed numbers on the guy. (Like I put 20 Hormagaunts and the Flyrant into a Bloodthirster. If he challenged there, Id decline and kill him.)

@jifel

For one you always have to accept a challange with a tervigon or the swarmlord with no guard.

As for your swarmlord example. Yes he had a lot of killing power, but when do you want him to do the killing?

For example the SL and 3 guard into a 5 man tactical squad. If you accept the chalange you run the risk of your guard killing off all 4 normal marines and SL is definitly going to kill the sargent. You wipe the unit and have to make it through everything he can throw at that unit in his shooting phase.

If you decline then SL sits out the combat on you turn. The guard are probably not going to kill all 5 marines. You are safely locked in combat in his shooting phase and then you can wipe out his unit in the opponets assault phase. Then in your turn you can then move and charge into a new combat without the extra turn of getting shot at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a side note. That tactual squad getting charged. Your instinct would be to tarpit the swarmlord with your sargent. That would be a bad idea. If the SL challenges, you should decline. That way your unit will get wiped out that turn and you can shoot up the Swarmlord and guards on your turn.

Either way that unit is probably going to die. Might as well get in some shots before charging it with other units (and charging in more units is the only thing you can do if you are still stuck in CC.)

Ailaros wrote:As for when to deny a challenge. Never. It makes the unit count as dead that round, and it's unlikely you're going to have all that many close combats last longer than a round (and have all possible challengers survive).

Librarians or models you want to keep alive.
Then if a small ork squad with a nob challenges you then you decline as it is just used to keep the nob alive and make it more likely to kill something.
If you have a couple of good ICs and you do not need all of them. Like a librarian and power sword sarg. either one will be enough on its own.
So sometimes refusing is fine.

So if the enemy is trying to assassinate a model or just trying to delay or trying to get an extra kill when they want one, then do not let the enemy succeed.

I agree with the OP that there are strategies involved in using or abusing challenges.

I use Farseer a whole lot, and when a baddie decides to charge me and assault me(and i know there is a good chance of him dying) i will either decline or let a warlock take the fall.

With assaulting, I can see the merit of declining a challenge with the Swarmlord. Because with my army i can drop a Swarmlord in one round of shooting. So yes, declining a challenge and then killing the squad the following turn, to prevent heavy retaliation is a viable strategy, I like it
Good points.

MFletch wrote:

Ailaros wrote:As for when to deny a challenge. Never. It makes the unit count as dead that round, and it's unlikely you're going to have all that many close combats last longer than a round (and have all possible challengers survive).

Librarians or models you want to keep alive.

Yes, but you have to have a squad that both has no other characters AND is able to still win a close combat regardless. This seems like it would be a pretty rare circumstance.

I mean, it doesn't make any sense to have a librarian hang back if the whole squad is going to go down in horrible defeat anyways.

As for the swarmlord, I couldn't say. My knowledge of tyranid is embryonic.

It boils down to the specific circumstance. Yes there are times to avoid challenges.

One example would be when you have a character that is a passive support character with little combat ability (like a stock sanguinary priest), and the rest of your unit is capable of holding or winning the combat. It would be silly to risk the character when he can still serve his main purpose.

Using the previous example of the swarmlord, if it's on your opponent's turn, directing his attacks against the squad instead of the character can get you the unsaved wounds to break the unit so you are free to act in your turn (Iron Arm/Endurance + Warp Speed is AWESOME for this). If you throw his attacks against a fairly non-threatening single wound character, you just robbed yourself of 2-3 extra wounds that could mean the difference in the squad breaking or not. Of course he'd be silly not to challenge you to try and tie up the Swarmlord, but don't make that move for him.

You have to look at it on a case by case basis and judge what the best outcome is for you. There is no best overall strat.

Ailaros wrote:

MFletch wrote:

Ailaros wrote:As for when to deny a challenge. Never. It makes the unit count as dead that round, and it's unlikely you're going to have all that many close combats last longer than a round (and have all possible challengers survive).

Librarians or models you want to keep alive.

Yes, but you have to have a squad that both has no other characters AND is able to still win a close combat regardless. This seems like it would be a pretty rare circumstance.

I mean, it doesn't make any sense to have a librarian hang back if the whole squad is going to go down in horrible defeat anyways.

I was planning to combat tactic out of there afterwards.

Then sargs are not always alive to act as a sacrificial lamb.

The example of a librarian is interesting because they really easy to kill but if alive at the back can actually still do cool things.

It is defiantly important to consider your challenges and when to accept/ decline. Tarpiting a unit for as long as possible is not always the best solution because while that unit is tarpited you cant shoot it. imagine your brooldlord and 3 gene stealers charge a unit of 5 marines. It is to your advantage that the marines do not [/i]die[i] in the first round of combat.your small squad of stealers while easily capable of destroying 5 marines in combat will be mercilessly shot up by a similar squad of 5 marines. It is reasonable to assume that there are another 5 marines nearby (the other half of the combat squad) so if you kill all the marines in combat with you, you will almost certainly die, or be severely hurt.

so what do you do as the tyranids?
if you dont challenge and he doesn’t challenge you wipe the unit.(worst case)
if you challange and he declines you will wipe the squad.(essentially also worst case)
if you challenge and he accepts(or vice versa) you run the risk of your three stealers rending alot and wiping the unit.
if he challenges and you decline your brood lord doesn’t attack and you will most likely not kill all the marines.(best case)

so it would be best for the nids if the marine challenged but if the marines do not challenge the best you could do is offer a challenge of your own and hope that he accepts to tie up your broodlords extra attacks.

on the other hand as the marine player you should never issue a challenge and if he issues one you should never accept.

now the exact sitiation will vary but the idea remains the same. Always consider as both the attacker and defender; do I want that unit to die? Or do I want that unit to tarpit?