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And you probably didn't guess it. It's Daemons.

As a prelude to the list i will tell you a couple of things:
This list will not win every time.
This list will only be competitive when a couple certain things go your way. One of them is getting the preferred wave of daemons.
I'm also going to be doing some math basing it on averages so stick with me here.
It's 2k and it is double FoC.
And Yes. It is a Flying Circus.
Try not to get upset at me, I am only sharing this list because i feel that the Air Force is the best list currently out there. Don't get mad if i try to trash the air force. Emphasis on the word try. They will probably beat any army in the game 90+% of the time. I feel this list would probably do the best out of any list i can think of (maybe other than hydra spam) against the air force.

The List:

HQ
Fateweaver

Bloodthirster
-Unholy Might

Bloodthirster
-Unholy Might

Bloodthirster
-Unholy Might

Troops
Plaguebearers (10)

Plaguebearers (10)

Plaguebearers (10)

Nurglings (3)

Nurglings (3)

Heavy Support
Daemon Prince
-Unholy Might

Daemon Prince
-Unholy Might



Okay so anyway what you would want to do is to put the three bloodthirsters and fateweaver into a wave, as well as the two DPs. Because the necron air force will be arriving from reserve, this will give you a little time to set your Circus up. I don't know exactly how many Scythes you can take in an army at 2k, but for all extensive purposes, I will leave it at 12 (9 night and 3 doom)

So anyway for setup:
Get all of the Bloodies, the DPs, and Fateweaver into his 6" bubble. Probably one of the better places to have this bubble is on a board edge or corner. You should probably elect to glide (and not swoop) them the first turn they drop and then run them into the bubble because: 1. they do not gain any benefit from swooping because the fliers have the skyfire special rule, and 2. they need to be facing away from the board edge or corner because they need to vector strike and can only turn 90 degrees beforehand.

I know what you are screaming at me at this point, you are screaming that i do not want to have them be within 6" when all the hellfire rains down from the air because of the Arc special rule that the Scythes have. I will get to that in a moment. For now once they are sitting near the board edge or in a neat little circle. Then all the baddies drop. the averages of reserves make it so that 2/3 of his units in reserves will come in. So, that is 6 Night Scythes and 2 Doom Scythes going on averages.

So we will assume that all of the Scythes are in range (as they probably will be) just for the sake of sanity. *WARNING* MATH HEAVY *WARNING* okay so i have read over the necron codex and i believe i have all of this right:

We will resolve the Tesla destructor shots first before the death rays. So 32 shots come from the scythes at one FMC. Fateweaver and the Bloodies are far more important in this list than the DPs,so i will calculate the percentages for both of them and not care about the DPs (because they are practically useless) and assume that either the opponent will not target them or that they will die horribly and the other guys will survive.

For a Bloodthirster: 32 shots are made against him, 21.3 hit without the re-roll, on the re-roll of the 10.7 that missed, 7.1 hit. That's 27 hits not counting the 6s yet.
on the first roll of 32, there will be 5.3 6s, and on the re-roll there will be 1.7, so that is a total of 7 6s. This adds 14 more shots to the total of 27 shots giving a total of 41 shots made at s7 ap-. This will be the number of hits regardless of targets, so we will go by this for now.

41 shots for the bloodthirster needs 3s to wound, that is 27 wounds on him. He has a 3+ armor with the Fateweaver re-rollable, giving a total of 3 wounds on one bloodthirster. Not dead yet. Since he will not be the center of the circle, not all of the other FMCs will be in range of the arc, so we will say that 3 other units are in the 6" range required for the arc, so 3 dice rolled each time the tesla is shot at the bloodthirster. Giving a total of 24 dice being rolled to see if it arcs. There will be an average of 4 arcs from 8 teslas. 4 d6 rolls (average roll is 3.5) give it a total of 14 hits caused to other FMCs Fate and the DPs will be hit on 4s but the Bloodthirsters will be hit on 5s. Lets say that there are two other Bloodthirsters and Fate within the 6" so each FMC is inflicted an average of 4.6 hits on them. that is 1.5 wounds on each BT and 2.3 wounds on Fateweaver. Because both of these units have 3+ saves that are re-rollable, these wounds can almost be negated.

If the 41 shots were on Fateweaver, he would die on average, considering that he is t5, so the destructor shots would hit him on 2s instead of 3s. He would only take an average of 3.5 wounds from the Scythes, so if they wanted to kill him, they would have to focus pretty much all of their fire at him, and would not be able to shoot down any other FMCs that turn. The arcs from him wouldn't hurt too much because he would give re-rollable saves to all arcs while he is alive, and when he dies the teslas would not arc anymore.

Then there is the Death ray. S10 ap1 and only two shots made because only 2 doom scythes came in. 2 shots made that need 3s to hit. so 1.3 hits and (since there are a lot of units close to eachother we will assume that it hits 3) so that would be 4 hits on average, needing 2s to wound that is about 3.3 wounds without fateweaver there would be a total of 1.65 wounds (not per model, per both death rays) (not counting DPs). If there was fateweaver there might be a wound at best from both death rays.

So if the Scythes targeted a bloodthirster, he would only have taken 3 wounds and there would still be everyone alive. If they had targeted Fateweaver, they would have killed him along with causing one wound to a bloodthirster or maybe 2 to a daemon prince. Regardless of the target, the 3 bloodthirsters and the two daemon princes will remain alive this turn (going solely off of averages) Now assuming that they are withing the 24" vector strike range (they are required to be because of the 24" range of the tesla gun), we can vector strike with 3 bloodthirsters, and two daemon princes.

All vector striking FMCs get d3+1 attacks, so that would be 3 attacks on average. Each Bloodthirster would need 3s to glance (because of s8 unholy might vector strike) and 4s to pen. Regardless of the pen rolls, there would be 2 glances on average from each bloodthirster. On average, that is a Scythe glanced to death per Bloodthirster. So 3 scythes down already.

Assuming that both Daemon Princes can move over the same target, they should. Each daemon prince gets 3 hits at s6 (because of unholy might) at the same target. So, 6 s6 hits that need 5s to glance. That comes out to one glance per DP, and one flier if they both attack the same one.

So for turn one, that is a total of 4 fliers down, about 1/3 of the Air Force. The next couple of turns would get really really really difficult to calculate averages, but i feel that the 'Thirsters will do well, considering the Air Force will no longer be firing at full strength, and they take out a flier per turn that they are alive if they are within range.

Plaguebearers are there for objective holding. They are strong and resilient and great for objective holding, especially in their numbers.


Anyway, i have seen a lot of lot of lot of Batreps with the airforce just obliterating to the point where the game doesn't look all too fun to play any more. So i decided to custom tailor a list that may or may not be competitive against them (i don't know, haven't play tested it, pretty sure i won't get the chance to).

Let me know what you think,

Thisisnotpancho

Very interesting. Loved the MathHammer. My only concern, well couple of concerns are this. If you don't get your preferred wave, it's most likely game over. Also, I don't know if you're a competitive or casual player but going by the fact you're looking for a way to beat SkyCron, I'm assuming you participate in Tournaments. That said, you won't be playing with 2xFOC, ever. Which kills this list and make the SkyCron list that much better seeing as they could bring 8 night scythes and 3 Doom Scythes at 2,000 points.

Also, I agree with you that if people bring SkyCron the game is just un-enjoyable to play. Go watch the Frontling Gaming VidRep. Jy2 plays against the SkyCron list and it is total obliteration. No chance. and Jy2 is even using the shootiest SW list I've ever seen.
Again, loved the MathHammer.

that is a lot of ifs , to make the army viable and the list doesnt work so well against non necron circus lists , so it is kind of a hard to call it compatitive.

It is enough for the tournament organizer to make the games 1999 or just under 2k and it stops working at all.

+ the necron list doesnt have to try to kill thirsters . it is enough for it to ground the whole flying circus and concentrate on them next turn .

I think IG has a much better chance than deamons. As Makumba says, there are a lot of ifs here. Also, I believe scythes have 3 hullpoints?

At 2k with 2xFOC, 6x vendetta + 2x icarus gun + OotF + maybe some more (like 2x BA stormraven from allies) IG lists will have a much better chance of winning the air war against necrons. With 2x FOC, many lists get much more able to knock out the necrons. Even with just one FOC, IG can seriously contest the necrons for air superiority. You can bring 4 great dogfighting planes yourself, you can delay the necrons with OotF and you can bring hydras.

My current 1750pts list brings 2x vendetta, 1x vulture (change for another vendetta for more AA/if you don't play with FW), 1x hydra, 1x icarus lascannon, 1x OotF and a CCS for twin-linking. It is enough to contest air superiority against a 6x scythe (3x doom, 3x night) list with ground support.

Bringing tons of alphastrike units is another option against these all-flyer lists. Bring several punchy units in pods, supported by punchy long range units and someone able to bring searchlights anywhere in turn 1 and the necron player will be sweating. This is why all-flyer necron lists aren't really viable IMO. You need a real ground presence, like wraits or allies.

If you allow FW, almost all codexes get better at AA duty, but normal space marines and dark angels probably benefit the most, with the mortis pattern dreads. Bring 3x mortis dreads and support them with your own planes, and once again, you are suddenly the top dog in the match-up.

FenrisianStuart21 wrote:
Very interesting. Loved the MathHammer. My only concern, well couple of concerns are this. If you don't get your preferred wave, it's most likely game over. Also, I don't know if you're a competitive or casual player but going by the fact you're looking for a way to beat SkyCron, I'm assuming you participate in Tournaments. That said, you won't be playing with 2xFOC, ever. Which kills this list and make the SkyCron list that much better seeing as they could bring 8 night scythes and 3 Doom Scythes at 2,000 points.

Also, I agree with you that if people bring SkyCron the game is just un-enjoyable to play. Go watch the Frontling Gaming VidRep. Jy2 plays against the SkyCron list and it is total obliteration. No chance. and Jy2 is even using the shootiest SW list I've ever seen.
Again, loved the MathHammer.

Well As I'm looking at the list, I realize that even if i do not get my preferred wave, the 'bearers will probably survive until the next round when some of the FMCs drop. 41 hits made against the plaguebearers from the air force, need 2s to wound, that's 34 wounds. Bearers always get their 5+5+, so that would be about 15 wounds total for the round for the plaguebearers. That's about a unit and a half, plus maybe 2 other wounds from the death ray. They would survive, but barely. The main issue of not getting your preferred wave is that all of the FMCs would not come in on the same turn, and since this list pretty much almost depends on Fateweaver being there for protection, it might not do so well.

Another option to keep your FMCs safe (if you don't get preferred wave) until the next turn is to drop them behind all of the air force, and that would secure them at least 1 or 2 turns of safety, considering that all of the airforce can only turn 90 degrees and then move 18" in a straight line. They would not be able to shoot the FMCs if they dropped in behind them.

Another thing i did not mention is that the Air Force would have a lot of trouble consistently shooting my FMC blob turn after turn. They would probably have a hard time shooting all of their fire at the FMCs in the first place, considering that all of the fliers have the deep strike rule, and must deep strike. They then cannot move after that. If they are within range of the FMC blob on the corner or side of the map, they will be withing vector strike range, they would not be able to shoot the FMCs the second turn after they made their vector strikes, because they would be behind the air force.

I think it would be fun trying to tear down the 'Force, but it kinda does suck that i can never actually take the list to a tourney...

Your math is wrong, plain and simple.

The big issue with your math is that you have not included all of the variables.

What about grounding tests? Every time your flyers get hit, not wounded, but hit, they take a grounding test. With as many hits as you stated they would be taking, they are almost guaranteed to get grounded turn one.
Grounded FMC= invuln only against the grounding S10 hit.

Well there would be no use in actually flying the fmcs. The should elect to glide when facing the air force the first time, because they would gain no benefit from the "hard to hit" rule. All flyers have skyfire and therefore it would be useless to swoop them. And the when they are grounded they take a s9 ap- hit, so their armor save would be applicable to the wound caused by that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
You should probably elect to glide (and not swoop) them the first turn they drop and then run them into the bubble because: 1. they do not gain any benefit from swooping because the fliers have the skyfire special rule, and 2. they need to be facing away from the board edge or corner because they need to vector strike and can only turn 90 degrees beforehand.

I mentioned this earlier, stating that it would be so much better to glide and not swoop them. And when they are gliding, they do not have to take grounding tests when they get hit.

Never mind just saw it was double foc.

That just means it isn't a counter to anything competitive because competitive events don't use double force org.

Otherwise I would say daemons make a fair counter to Necron air forces, that is the only list that has done well against mine.

thisisnotpancho wrote:And the when they are grounded they take a s9 ap- hit, so their armor save would be applicable to the wound caused by that.

Pg 49 of the BYB, read the rule, you are wrong.

"If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded."

Where are you finding the str 9 ap- hit? or were you just making that up?

I will say that I was wrong about the s10 hit in my earlier post, it is 9, I made a mistake on that one, but I consulted my book before continuing an argument. Try it sometime.

 nolzur wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:And the when they are grounded they take a s9 ap- hit, so their armor save would be applicable to the wound caused by that.

Pg 49 of the BYB, read the rule, you are wrong.

"If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded."

Where are you finding the str 9 ap- hit? or were you just making that up?

I will say that I was wrong about the s10 hit in my earlier post, it is 9, I made a mistake on that one, but I consulted my book before continuing an argument. Try it sometime.

Dude, why are you so angry? You seem to be offended by me in some way or another.

 Illumini wrote:


Even with just one FOC, IG can seriously contest the necrons for air superiority. You can bring 4 great dogfighting planes yourself, you can delay the necrons with OotF and you can bring hydras.

My current 1750pts list brings 2x vendetta, 1x vulture (change for another vendetta for more AA/if you don't play with FW), 1x hydra, 1x icarus lascannon, 1x OotF and a CCS for twin-linking. It is enough to contest air superiority against a 6x scythe (3x doom, 3x night) list with ground support.

Really? Are you sure about that?

Delay works in the Necron's favor for an air war. Your fliers will likely be deployed before ours. Deployed fliers = sitting ducks = death ray/tesla destructor candy. Those six fliers (And I in no way advocate purchasing or running six Scythes) will come in from reserve and eradicate or seriously damage every target that threatens them. You can't hide from Scythes.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Then there is the Death ray. S10 ap1 and only two shots made because only 2 doom scythes came in. 2 shots made that need 3s to hit. so 1.3 hits and (since there are a lot of units close to eachother we will assume that it hits 3) so that would be 4 hits on average, needing 2s to wound that is about 3.3 wounds without fateweaver there would be a total of 1.65 wounds (not per model, per both death rays) (not counting DPs). If there was fateweaver there might be a wound at best from both death rays.

1. First off, you have to use the death ray 1st, as the rules on page 50 of the Necron Codex under "Death Ray" state:

"If the vehicle's other weaponry is fired in the same shooting phase, it must be fired at one of the units hit by the death ray."

2. you don't roll HITS for a death ray. If a model is under the death ray's 1mm width line, it's automatically hit, and you only roll to wound directly.

Oh, also, if the necron has Zandrekh on the table, the moment you deepstrike a unit (and you will...), his entire army can enter the battlefield.

I play necron airforce and until there are more AA guns nothing will beat them more than 50% of the time.

Just run pods. You can kill whatever small squad(s) he deploys on table and if you wipe turn 1 game is over. Space marines, blood angels and wolf pod lists have little trouble against necron air force.

If you really wanna counter it:

CCS, Astro 80

3x Vendetta 390
3x Vendetta 390
3x Vendetta 390

= 1250

Fill rest of points with whatever, Vets w/ Plasma in Chimera's are good against most things that Crons have on foot.

You'll likely have more stuff than him on the table before his Scythes come in, if he deploys shittily just table him (he likely won't, unless he's a terrible player).

When his Scythes come on, he has 2 choices:

1. Move them onto the board to shoot your Chimera's and other stuff. In this case, your Vendettas come on, and you kill 3 of his airplanes. By flatouting one Vendetta to the very front of the squadron, you can catch hits on him with his 4+ Jink for the other 2, and 6 TL las should still kill a Scythe (on average).

2. Moves off the board immediately with Flatout moves to be able to Alphastrike you. If he does this, your onboard stuff will likely murder him.

When your Vendettas come on, if his Scythes are on the board, kill them, if not Flatout off and wait for him to come on so you can Alphastrike.


In my experience you really don't want to take any more than 5-6 Flyers max in Cron armies, any more and you reduce your onboard prescence too much @ 2k.

Its also really hard to get good targets with them for more than 2 turns in a row, meaning that in a 5 turn game, if you came in t2 you'll get 3 rounds of shooting. Now that's still good, but if that's all the shooting you've got its not gonna be enough at 2k.

This is why I also favor Immortals in my Night Scythes, as with the changes to cover I find Warriors to be even worse in this edition as ap4 is EVERYWHERE. Sure, they can shoot at 30" now and Hull points mean they can destroy vehicles, but no, just no. Just pay the extra 4pts and take Immortals, they're more survivable by far and they have far superior guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emp. wrote:
Just run pods. You can kill whatever small squad(s) he deploys on table and if you wipe turn 1 game is over. Space marines, blood angels and wolf pod lists have little trouble against necron air force.

Remember though, that he doesn't have to put his stuff in the Scythes. When he sees you're packing 3 pods coming down on t1, he'll likely want to avoid a wipeout and deploy some of the infantry from in the Scythes. Unless he's a dumbass, but then you probably would have won anyway

Jabbdo: 3!? Talking minimum 5 boss man

Also piggybacking on jabbdo's above dettas. If you come in first you can always line his board edge. He cannot hover or outflank so when his scythes come in they fly over you and face whatever is waiting on your board edge and vendettas aren't touched because of his facing. Welcome to back armor beat face land