Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was responding to a list question and i received an answer and the person said that if a model is able to take a "power weapon" the model can choose what kind, IE axe lance what have you, is this true? and if it is how do you go about it on your list for say, tournaments?

Skal098 wrote:
I was responding to a list question and i received an answer and the person said that if a model is able to take a "power weapon" the model can choose what kind, IE axe lance what have you, is this true? and if it is how do you go about it on your list for say, tournaments?

Why this is so confusing and the cause of so much netrage baffles me.

The rulebook clearly spells out what a power weapon is and the various types(with rules/stats for each).

Some models are described as having a specific type: "model may buy a powersword for +x", etc.

If a model's entry does not specify a specific type but says he may have or buy a "power weapon" you are free to choose the type and should model it as per WYSIWYG.

What am I missing? Could someone give me a concise overview of what the prevailing counterargument might be?

The problem arises with certain people saying that if you convert a model that comes with an axe to a sword then you are MFA. The rules do not give an permission to convert a model but GW give implicit permission to do so through a myriad of Golden Demon competitions.

That is the summary.

 CT GAMER wrote:

If a model's entry does not specify a specific type but says he may have or buy a "power weapon" you are free to choose the type and should model it as per WYSIWYG.

It doesn't actually say that.

It doesn't provide a caveat that unspecified power weapons may be replaced with any power weapon. It also doesn't say you may make a choice of powerweapon...

All it says is to look at the model... The ability to 'choose' a weapon option is based off the implied social convention 'right' to convert models to look different and not explicitly given to anyone via an explicit rule the way "you may buy a melta for +20 points" is.

Many weapons are having thier profiles restricted based upon GW's explicit imagery which even though it would be possible to give the unit in question a lance or a maul, GW's design of the model and their vision of the fluff restricts it. The question which has yet to be determined is if the first round of FAQs is going to be followed by more updates for many of the units who have power weapons who need attention (many unusual PWs which seem they shouldn't be) and it is very possible that many more units will get explicit weapon types post-FAQ like Necrons did.

But right now... feel free to give your harlequins poweraxes... but you can do so based upon an implied social convention, not an explicit permission based in the rulebook... and it can be revoked anytime.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The problem arises with certain people saying that if you convert a model that comes with an axe to a sword then you are MFA. The rules do not give an permission to convert a model but GW give implicit permission to do so through a myriad of Golden Demon competitions.

That is the summary.

IF that is truely the arguement then it may be one of the most illogical and desperate pieces of feth I have ever seen in a rules discussion.

So what about people that do headswaps? Those arent the stock heads and you have no permission to convert them, those shoulder pads are not stock,etc., etc.

Half the models/armies out there then are invalid by this silly notion...

Models themselves are tokens of what you have payed for and are fielding via your army list. They should be WYSIWYG and follow the rules of the army list in question. Their is NO obligation to use a model "stock form only".

Utter rubbish as far as I'm concerned...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

But right now... feel free to give your harlequins poweraxes... but you can do so based upon an implied social convention, not an explicit permission based in the rulebook... and it can be revoked anytime.

It is implicit on GW to specify in each list/codex entry which i assume they will do moving forward if they intend units/models to be restricted to specific types of power weapons. FOR example in a new Eldr codex they might specify that banshees have "power swords", etc.

I don't see them making a FAQ ruling trying to enforce using stock model armament as the deciding factor fora number of reasons:

Take a space marine sgt. He can be represnted by various metal sculpts or built from plastic components. Are people suggesting that someone who buys a metal sgt sculpt they like but chops off its powersword to give it an axe is breaking the rules (even though he is fully codex legal and WYSIWYG) while his opponent who builds a plastic sgt with power axe is able to do so freely?



Makes no sense. The codex define what is allowed and the model itself is a token used to represnt what you pick from that codex. If the codex allows the fig to have a "power weapon" you then pick which one you wish to have wen you build the model.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/469699.page

 Ghaz wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/469699.page

GW will most likey limit squads/models to specific power weapons moving forward and/or have different point costs for different power weapons would be my bet.

However nothing in the rules currently makes it illegal...

 CT GAMER wrote:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

But right now... feel free to give your harlequins poweraxes... but you can do so based upon an implied social convention, not an explicit permission based in the rulebook... and it can be revoked anytime.

It is implicit on GW to specify in each list/codex entry which i assume they will do moving forward if they intend units/models to be restricted to specific types of power weapons. FOR example in a new Eldr codex they might specify that banshees have "power swords", etc.

I don't see them making a FAQ ruling trying to enforce using stock model armament as the deciding factor fora number of reasons:

Um, they already did... many types of units already had stock model armament FAQed into them. And then others had stock Model Armament added to them when the digital codexes were updated after the FAQs. So we have had two rounds of updates where each round added more 'Powerweapons' to specific limitations based upon stock armament.

And conisdering how there are lots of weapons out there not working right due to 'unusual pwoer weapon' issues... they are far from done from 'fixing' the cleanup of the unclear ambiguous rulebook rule.

Take a space marine sgt. He can be represnted by various metal sculpts or built from plastic components. Are people suggesting that someone who buys a metal sgt sculpt they like but chops off its powersword to give it an axe is breaking the rules (even though he is fully codex legal and WYSIWYG) while his opponent who builds a plastic sgt with power axe is able to do so freely?

You claim he is codex legal... but nothing has said he may modify his weapons in what you describe. The choice of weapon for a power weapon is implied that youa re free to model anything you want. It is not actually said anywhere or given to you as permission the way "may have a plasma pistol" is.

Of course generic characters with multipart bitz are probably going to be able to do this, the question are for models who do not have multi-parts and do not have a history of having any models anywhere with all four weapon options... Carving up a static, single-piece finecast/metal model who has never had axes is a type of model that may find itself unable to take axes int he near future... and usually what people are questioning. instantly latching onto a SM plastic sarge to compare to a single-piece DCA, harlequins or even compare to the Necron Lychguard doesn't wash as people clearly see a difference between those models.

Makes no sense. The codex define what is allowed and the model itself is a token used to represnt what you pick from that codex. If the codex allows the fig to have a "power weapon" you then pick which one you wish to have wen you build the model.

But the rules for power weapons don't actually say that.. Every version of the rule you quote isn't actually supported by a rule... it only works due to LACK of rules... And the codex was not FAQes to say 'You may choose any of the following power weapon types'. The only reason why the rule works is because there is a gaping hole in the rules on how far you are allowed to modify your models and that the ability to change the model so the 'look at the model' ends up being what you wish to choose is IMPLIED.

Right now, it is IMPLIED it works... until GW says it doesn't. Which they have done... for many units. Twice now... and I suspect we will see a third round... and even a 4th example when codex chaos hits.

I'm not even sure it is 'implied' to work.

It says you can look at the model to determine weapon, it does not say you can model it with whatever weapon you want.

Headswaps are a lousy comparison, as they have no game effect.

There are 3 other threads on this topic, there is no need to re-tread old water here.

coredump wrote:
I'm not even sure it is 'implied' to work.

It says you can look at the model to determine weapon, it does not say you can model it with whatever weapon you want.

Headswaps are a lousy comparison, as they have no game effect.

And if you look at my model and see a "power axe" then I should be good. Does it say "look at a stock model to determine power weapon type" or "compare model to a stock version to determine power weapon type AND that it is stock"? OF course it doesnt...

My model with an axe is a model and it is armed legally and to WYSIWYG.

Game effect is irrelevant, if people are arguing that models must be stock then ALL models must be stock by that same logic...

Ok my apologies, my intent was not to bring up a rules debate war, to further the question, would it matter if it was on an archon, and you would have to pay for said upgrade?