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I'm sure it is out there, but I am only finding older posts. I am really looking to see how the four choices (Basilisk, Medusa, Colossus, Griffon, Manticore) have changed, and if anyone has tested out different combinations and such.

I really only want to take up one heavy support spot on my FOC because LRs are really awesome. With this in mind, do I take two tanks in one squad, or just one altogether?

If I take one, it will be either Manticore, Basilisk, or Colossus.

If I take two in a squad...

2 x Basilisk
2 x Manticore
Basilisk + Colossus
Basilisk + Manticore

Viable? Thoughts?

TLDR Is there a post that breaks down IG artillery choices in 6th and has opinions from a few different players?

The basilisk lost its blind spot. And there was much rejoicing. Furthermore, the center-of-blast makes it like twice as likely to glance a vehicle, but the new VDC makes it only half as likely to blow up a vehicle straight away.

The medusa has become one on a very short list of things that can actually one-shot vehicles in the codex if you take it with bastion breachers. That said, glancing to death is now a legitimate option (if not the best way to go about it). Without bastion breachers, a medusa is just a flimsy demolisher. Don't bother.

The colossus got a bit of a boost in that it can hurt vehicles, and a bit of a sideways nerf in that cover got worse. It's basically the same though. If you took it before, take it now.

The manticore is harder to parse. On the one hand, those S10 missiles now blow stuff up half as often, but those multiple shots means it can glance stuff to death better than other artillery options. Against infantry it keeps its role of horde sweeper, and its other peculiar role of causing instant death to things that it doesn't ignore armor saves of. I'd probably say my opinion is about the same.

In any case, you still can't squad up manticore.

Well, you seem to have a very respected opinion on these forums. Out of curiosity, what would you take as heavy support in a 1750 list? Do you think 2 different tanks in one squad would be a waste of firepower?

Also I didn't know that you couldn't have a manticore in a squad...I suppose it makes sense, but it is kind of a bummer.

Yeah, 6th ed didn't change the guard codex. They have to have SOME limitations, though.

As for two different tanks in one squad, I wouldn't bother unless you're going to be shooting at the same target almost every time anyways. For example, an executioner and a demolisher might not make the worst matchup, or an exterminator and a punisher.

I'd probably not bother, though, unless you really have to. Better to have the same kind of tank in the same squad.

 Ailaros wrote:

As for two different tanks in one squad...

This does make sense, but what if I want to load up on heavy support? I would like to run two demos or a demo and a lrbt at least, which doesn't leave me much room for anything else. It seems like it is between the manticore and the basilisk at this point...but I play against a lot of biker nobs and ignoring that cover would be oh so sweet...

Well, you don't HAVE to take two different tanks. I think it would be better to take 2 demolishers or 2 LRBTs than one of each if you know you're going to have to squad them.

Well...

My thoughts for my three heavy support choices are:
LRBT
LRD
????????

I might do something like...
LRBT x 2
LRD x 2
????????

I just can't decide what to take as a third HS choice. I do think I would take artillery to make the list a little more balanced, though. This brings me to my original thought, that just one artillery platform is unacceptable. So it is a choice between taking one (basilisk, manticore, etc.), squading, or just taking 3 demolishers and bum rushing >.>

I do very much agree that taking a demo and a LRBT in the same squad is kind of silly though. They are just too different.

Honestly, if you're particularly afraid of Biker Nobs the Manticore is the artillery of choice. You pack more firepower into the first few turns, and S10 allows no FNP save and instakills the Nobs. One major change for the Manticore (by my understanding) is that all "Barrage" weapons (such as the Manticore) only have one mode if fire now. They could previously be fired as Barrage or regular Ordnance. For most units, it doesn't make much difference, for the Manticore, it means your D3 shots are fired as Barrage, so you place the first, scatter, then all the other shots are flipped off of the first template. In 5th, the Manticore used to be able to place and scatter each of its shots separately when firing in regular ordnance mode, allowing it to concentrate damage better. In 6th this isn't an option. This isn't to say the Manticore is bad, it's just something you need to consider.

I think your triple Demolisher rush has merit, though. It creates a nice "zone of exclusion" that makes life pretty uncomfortable in a slowly approaching 24" radius circle.

The basilisk lost its blind spot. And there was much rejoicing. Furthermore, the center-of-blast makes it like twice as likely to glance a vehicle, but the new VDC makes it only half as likely to blow up a vehicle straight away.

Actually the basilisk kind of gained a blind spot since it can no longer fire directly within 36" you will always be scattering the full 2d6. But yes getting full strength again is a wonderous thing.
I love my basilisks. They are absolutely essential for static guard armies, use them to annhillate squads on objectives too far from you.

being forced to scatter an extra up to 3" is nothing compared to not being able to shoot at all...

being forced to scatter an extra up to 3" is nothing compared to not being able to shoot at all...

You always struck me as a very seasoned guard player so surely you knew, in 5th the basilisk could fire 'directly' in which case you ignore its minimum range and treat it like a normal non-barrage weapon. That was never stated in the codex, only the rule book under the section for barrage weapons. You only had a 36" inch minimum when you chose to fire 'indirectly'. The collusus and griffon had the disclaimer that you could never fire directly so they couldn't use that rule

Yes, but now you don't have to expose yourself in order to fire at things on your 2/3ds of the board.

Furthermore, you still get to use your BS to subtract from the shot when it's going at something in LOS on the other side of the board.

Of course, other weapons like the colossus got better too, but their minimum range tended not to be so much of a problem.

Pardon for poking my nose in on your discussion Ailaros, but to confirm, Basilisks still may fire "directly" in 6th?

As somebody who plays T3 4+ armies(regularly against guard), I fear griffons the most for their accuracy, and the basilisks for range.

Manticores are still priority targets(my guard friend always gets mad that I kill it turn 1 or 2 because it wrecks) and now it is even more dangerous as barrage can snipe out certain models.
Long ranged arty has a new place from hammer and anvil, but with TEQ getting a boost Ap2 and 1 S10 guns can make a huge difference against some armies. The colossus is cute with ignore cover, but I fear hellhounds FAR more, as I can take the colossus out quick, but the hellhounds have a knack for wiping whole units of elves from existence. Ap4 vs Ap3 does not matter to me when 2+ to wound kills no questions asked.

I would go with a manticore, and maybe a pair of basilisks.Arty should pump out high strength fire. Guard have plenty of other places to get S6 spam or low AP weapons.
Just my 2 cents.

Cpt Horatius wrote:
Pardon for poking my nose in on your discussion Ailaros, but to confirm, Basilisks still may fire "directly" in 6th?

Yes, but "directly" just means "reduce scatter by BS" now.

Of course this mean that the griffon, colossus and deathstrike can never reduce their scatter, as they can't fire directly.

Thank-you Trickstick, had a moment there with the misread, phew!

so what is the opinion of using a Griffon and 1-2 basilisks as an artillery unit? Sure you have the chance of missing fire, but the reroll on the griffon allows more chance of your initial hit of being spot on, even with the basilisks scattering in barrage. Ive had some modest success with this set up so far, anyone else have experience?

I hate the idea of mixing artillery units, the target priorities and range brackets are all mixed up. It would be better to just get a third basilisk, or spend the points on something else.

 Trickstick wrote:
I hate the idea of mixing artillery units, the target priorities and range brackets are all mixed up. It would be better to just get a third basilisk, or spend the points on something else.

That's not the point of the griffon. It can reroll scatter. Shoot it first, reroll if you miss, and it lets you make the basilisk shells way more accurate. Plus, the griffon isn't exactly weak either.

I probably wouldn't run it, but I can see why someone would.

Oh I can see why, I'm not saying it is the worst tactic ever or anything. However, the griffon can't reduce scatter by BS and the basilisk shots are not really that accurate. You roll a hit, you would have hit without the griffon. You roll an arrow and you are likely to only hit a model or two, except against larger units. Also, the basilisk would only be able to kill those edge models, with the new allocation rules.

It just seems to me that more guns that are effective would be better than the "accuracy upgrade" that the griffon is.

Okay so it seems like the best choices are:

Basilisk x2
Manticore
Medusa (x2)

I agree that the role of the colossus/griffon can be filled in a less coveted FOC spot.

Also, I realy hate the range of medusa. Even when it is increased to 48, it still seems just too low for artillery imo.

kmraider wrote:
Okay so it seems like the best choices are:

Basilisk x2
Manticore
Medusa (x2)

I agree that the role of the colossus/griffon can be filled in a less coveted FOC spot.

Also, I realy hate the range of medusa. Even when it is increased to 48, it still seems just too low for artillery imo.

That's because it's not artillery and it was never designed to be. It's a siege weapon, and is designed with a completely different role in mind. It's for cracking buildings, heavy armor, and 2+ save deathstars. It's lack of range though really hurts it in this role though, and I'd much rather have a demolisher for a minor points cost instead.

It is too fragile to be an effective siege platform imo. Like you said, for a small point cost you can get a big AV upgrade, fire while moving, and only 24 instead of 36 inch. I suppose with this in mind, it is hard to justify taking the medusa unless you don't want to pay for a demo.

Although I may take one/two anyways because I am getting kind of bored with the basilisk and especially the manticore.

I'm trying make an IG list myself, and the presence of only 4 rockets makes me wary of the Manticore. I don't like anything that will only be used for 4 turns, but my friend says it's a better choice than a Basilisk.

One the one hand, I kinda see that would be (36" is a pretty big area on non-Apocalypse boards), but I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

Also, if given the choice between an Executioner or a Demolisher, which would you guys go for?

 Elector wrote:
I'm trying make an IG list myself, and the presence of only 4 rockets makes me wary of the Manticore. I don't like anything that will only be used for 4 turns, but my friend says it's a better choice than a Basilisk.

One the one hand, I kinda see that would be (36" is a pretty big area on non-Apocalypse boards), but I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

Also, if given the choice between an Executioner or a Demolisher, which would you guys go for?

...

People still believe this?

Manticores do not run out of rockets.

As for Executioners vs. Demolishers, in the previous edition it was all about Executioners with plasma sponsons throwing death across the field. Now that plasma sponsons can ruin your tank, and you can take FNP saves against AP2 weapons, its stock has gone down in value. The demolisher's main issue was the 24" range which could get it in trouble, but with pre-measuring you can always keep it near max range to avoid close engagements while still raining death. And it's a S10 AP2 weapon, so great for nuking Paladins/Nobs/Plague Marines/bikes/whatever.

Demolisher is better all around and cheaper, Executioner will put out more shots at a longer range. Personal preference really, but I always run 3* demolishers with other russes as support.

The 4 rockets is a non issue as statistically it is 2 rockets per shot for an average of 8. Besides, most opponents can't afford to let it go 4 turns anyway.

Demolisher is S10 which means it is a significant threat to armor. Executioner can strip off hull points faster, though, on light vehicles.

Elector wrote:I'm trying make an IG list myself, and the presence of only 4 rockets makes me wary of the Manticore. I don't like anything that will only be used for 4 turns, but my friend says it's a better choice than a Basilisk.

One the one hand, I kinda see that would be (36" is a pretty big area on non-Apocalypse boards), but I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

Also, if given the choice between an Executioner or a Demolisher, which would you guys go for?

It may only be 4 rockets, but that’s a potential 12x S10 large blasts. Try and find another unit in any codex in 40k that can do that, let alone for the points you’re paying.

Besides, they are such high priority targets (against players that have faced them before) that if it survives 4 turns it’s a bonus and you can go around using the hull heavy flamer/blocking, etc.

Is it better than a Basilisk? Well, that depends what you’re shooting at. Marines in the open; Basilisk. Land Raider or Nob Bikers; Manticore.

The 36” min range is now almost a non-factor. It was huge in 5th and the single reason why you didn’t see more of them – they were almost useless on most 6’x4’ boards as you’d either have to sit them in the open (recipe for doom) or hide them away and hope something was over 36” away.

As for Demolisher vs Executioner; it really depends on the rest of your list. If you’re lacking in S10 (useful for ID’ing T5 models or cracking forts/AV14) then the choice is obvious. If you need more heavy infantry killing power, then the Executioner. I play against a lot of MEQ (and Sisters) and have found the Executioner to be a valuable asset as long as it has sufficient protection and other elements of my list can open up transports. The Demolisher is still prone to only getting one shot at BS3, so it’s not as reliable as a three round burst from the Executioner. I would say if you’re going to take a Demolisher, take two.

generalchaos34 wrote:
so what is the opinion of using a Griffon and 1-2 basilisks as an artillery unit? Sure you have the chance of missing fire, but the reroll on the griffon allows more chance of your initial hit of being spot on, even with the basilisks scattering in barrage. Ive had some modest success with this set up so far, anyone else have experience?

It is still not a good idea to mix artillery.
What happens when your target lies out of 48” or under 12”? What happens when your Griffon lands smack in the middle of a unit, then both Basilisks roll arrows? Wound allocation is less of a problem now for mixed artillery units but your two Basilisks will cost 22% more than someone who isn’t using a spotting Griffon.

infinityandbeyond wrote:

Elector wrote:I'm trying make an IG list myself, and the presence of only 4 rockets makes me wary of the Manticore. I don't like anything that will only be used for 4 turns, but my friend says it's a better choice than a Basilisk.

One the one hand, I kinda see that would be (36" is a pretty big area on non-Apocalypse boards), but I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

Also, if given the choice between an Executioner or a Demolisher, which would you guys go for?

It may only be 4 rockets, but that’s a potential 12x S10 large blasts. Try and find another unit in any codex in 40k that can do that, let alone for the points you’re paying.

Besides, they are such high priority targets (against players that have faced them before) that if it survives 4 turns it’s a bonus and you can go around using the hull heavy flamer/blocking, etc.

Is it better than a Basilisk? Well, that depends what you’re shooting at. Marines in the open; Basilisk. Land Raider or Nob Bikers; Manticore.

The 36” min range is now almost a non-factor. It was huge in 5th and the single reason why you didn’t see more of them – they were almost useless on most 6’x4’ boards as you’d either have to sit them in the open (recipe for doom) or hide them away and hope something was over 36” away.

As for Demolisher vs Executioner; it really depends on the rest of your list. If you’re lacking in S10 (useful for ID’ing T5 models or cracking forts/AV14) then the choice is obvious. If you need more heavy infantry killing power, then the Executioner. I play against a lot of MEQ (and Sisters) and have found the Executioner to be a valuable asset as long as it has sufficient protection and other elements of my list can open up transports. The Demolisher is still prone to only getting one shot at BS3, so it’s not as reliable as a three round burst from the Executioner. I would say if you’re going to take a Demolisher, take two.

Interesting points, I'll probably go Executioner mainly, with the Demolisher as a back-up until I can get another to back it up.
(My meta has either some form of horde or MEQ, it's really one or the other) but I think I'm leaning towards the Basilisk because of it's AP (and the model. I like the WWII field artillery look)..

Omegus wrote:
...

People still believe this?

Manticores do not run out of rockets.

I base my knowledge off the codex saying it has Limited Ammunition. It only has 4 rockets and after all have been fired it cannot fire again. It's actually very explicitly stated in the codex, unless it's been FAQ'd out (which I doubt)

 Omegus wrote:

 Elector wrote:
I'm trying make an IG list myself, and the presence of only 4 rockets makes me wary of the Manticore. I don't like anything that will only be used for 4 turns, but my friend says it's a better choice than a Basilisk.

One the one hand, I kinda see that would be (36" is a pretty big area on non-Apocalypse boards), but I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

Also, if given the choice between an Executioner or a Demolisher, which would you guys go for?

...

People still believe this?

Only if they have actually read the codex............. Yes, Manticores do run out of rockets.