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i.c.s per the sixth core rule book are treated as part of a unit they join for all rules.

the red thirst in the blood angels faq states that an i.c. that has succumbed can join other units that have succumbed or units with the black rage, yet no i.c. has the red thirst as a rule.

So the question this creates is does the i.c. retain the thirst after detaching from the unit?

This also causes other questions for other armies to crop up, such as combat drugs for dark eldar and how they interact with i.c.s and the units they have joined. Do you give combat drugs to a model without in this way? Does an i.c. give it to the unit? I know its a stretch, but the wording of the 40k rule book permits the inquiry as to how the "unit" special rules that are addressed at the start of the game interact with an i.c. attached to the unit.

Far as I know most of those rules that are specific to the unit and are not USR's are not gained by Characters with the IC rule joining the squad, or vice versa a Character doesn't normally confer their specific rules to a unit, only USR's unless otherwise stated. I know the red thirst has been brought up before and the general answer is "GW is future-proofing".

However the unit rules that "test" at the start of the game state "the unit gains/suffers x" and the ic rules state that when the ic is attached, it is part of the unit. So it brings up the question that when the unit special rule takes hold, would it also be applied to the ic and would it carry over once they are no longer one unit? It's an issue due to the bloodangels faq. It's not a matter of when its attached but if its attached when the rule kicks in per the wording of the ic rule and the loosely worded rules used as an example, lacking the "not including ics attached"

I'd still say it's the unit WITH the rule. Yes the IC is attached but he is still, technically, a separate unit in the grand scheme of the game (and he doesn't have the whatever rule). Unless the gains/suffers are USR's then you'd follow those guidelines. Also, does the rule say WHEN at the start of the game? Is it before deployment, after deployment, during first turn...?

With the thirst, its after deployment, before the start of the game & before any preturn moves but after combat squads are broken up, so that would require combat squads to test separately because they ate treated as two units. Combat drugs I don't recall.

This doesn't matter really as there are no BA IC's that have the thirst.

you could always just read the codex... the red thirst changes the rules for the unit, any ICs attached to the unit are part of the unit in 6th ed. You roll one die for a unit.

Azrell wrote:
you could always just read the codex... the red thirst changes the rules for the unit, any ICs attached to the unit are part of the unit in 6th ed. You roll one die for a unit.

Good point but since the ic model doesn't have thirst does the effect transfer?

So the faq that references the ics that have red thirst is for why? No ics with thirst, so its not needed, but it is...so they have it, or its they have it as long as they are in the unit, and if they break from the unit, they can't rejoin. That's the two choices.
Also, seeing as they have the black rage referenced, and no ic has that, it is inferred that it would be carried over to an ic that breaks off from a unit it started with.

No, you're making a leap unsupported with rules.
There is no reason for the FAQ right now.

So right now, they can only have the red thirst when attached to the unit, and if the ic breaks from the unit, it may not rejoin. After rereading pg 39. I was thinking it would be ongoing effects, when its special rules.

Combat drugs are prior to deployment and as such I retract that part of the question.

I thought Red Thirst was an BA Army rule... not a Unit rule.

The BA red thirst states that any unit that has this rule must test to see if it succumbs to it, after it does, ALL models in the unit are TREATED as having fearless and and fuirious charge, and ditch atsknf. After talking to a friend of mine(who is way better at reading and understanding the rules than I am), it would be ic and continuous effects, rather than ic and special rules. Since it is ALL models in the unit and the ic is in the unit, it stays with the ic once the ic has left the unit.

Here's the thing though, rules are not conferred to joined Independent Characters by default. They must state they do so or be a USR that states they do so.

I suppose a simpler question is, would this have happened in 5th edition? I say this because ultimately the IC rules were similar, the largest difference is how they act in assaults.

It is not a usr, true. It's an army rule and codex trumps brb. It is after deployment, so the ic is attached to the unit. It is a continuous effect making them be treated as having a set of rules. Not that they really have the rules. As such, per ic rules on pg 39, the red thirst carries over to the ic when not attached.

lostinthewarp wrote:
The BA red thirst states that any unit that has this rule must test to see if it succumbs to it, after it does, ALL models in the unit are TREATED as having fearless and and fuirious charge, and ditch atsknf. After talking to a friend of mine(who is way better at reading and understanding the rules than I am), it would be ic and continuous effects, rather than ic and special rules. Since it is ALL models in the unit and the ic is in the unit, it stays with the ic once the ic has left the unit.

No - the unit gains the rules. Once the IC leaves the unit, is he still a member of the unit that has gained the rules?

And IC rules have a statement that not all unit rules will transfer to them. While part of the unit, sure, give it to him (altho even that is debateable in the new rules). But once he leaves, no, he does not have it.

lostinthewarp wrote:
It is not a usr, true. It's an army rule and codex trumps brb. It is after deployment, so the ic is attached to the unit. It is a continuous effect making them be treated as having a set of rules. Not that they really have the rules. As such, per ic rules on pg 39, the red thirst carries over to the ic when not attached.

Codex only trumps BRB in rules that conflict with one another. The pg 39 rules are mainly talking about how Independent Characters can't be picked out of a group when they're joined to a unit, by shooting or close combat. And that they would be affected by psychic powers and other such things just as the unit would. However, this does not mean they are granted special abilities of the unit or special rules. Otherwise, when I joined an IC to a squad of deathmarks he would get the hunter from hyperspace rule and ethereal interception rules.

Especially now in 6th edition where things are more model-to-model instead of unit-to-unit, and with the rules that they gain and lose it would/should work just fine. The unit he is with gains fearless (which he would benefit from), Furious Charge (Which he would not benefit from), and they lose ATSKNF (which the unit would still benefit from since the IC has it).

So, if The Red Thirst is an army wide rule however, does every unit test for it? If so, you would test separately for the IC and if he doesn't succumb to it but the unit he is attached to does then they would work as above. But if it's just specific units that test for it and the IC is not one of them and is joined to a unit that does, he does not test nor succumb to it. Yes I know it's mentioned in the FAQ but as others have stated at the moment it's rather pointless.

The red thirst states "every unit with this rule"
Ic don't have the rule, but can be attached to the unit prior to testing "after deployment"
The red thirst goes on to say "all models in the unit" not all models that have this rule. Making the ic have it as well, regardless of them not having the rule.
The faq is correct.

lostinthewarp wrote:
The red thirst states "every unit with this rule"
Ic don't have the rule, but can be attached to the unit prior to testing "after deployment"
The red thirst goes on to say "all models in the unit" not all models that have this rule. Making the ic have it as well, regardless of them not having the rule.
The faq is correct.

All models in the unit gain Fearless and FC.
The IC leaves the unit.
Is the IC in a unit that gained Fearless and FC?

Treated as has, not gains.

lostinthewarp wrote:
Treated as has, not gains.

So the unit that fell to the Red Thirst is treated as having Fearless and FC.
Once the IC leaves the unit, is he still a member of a unit that fell to the Red Thirst?

lostinthewarp wrote:
The red thirst states "every unit with this rule"
Ic don't have the rule, but can be attached to the unit prior to testing "after deployment"
The red thirst goes on to say "all models in the unit" not all models that have this rule. Making the ic have it as well, regardless of them not having the rule.
The faq is correct.

You're contradicting yourself there though, if the rules states "every unit with this rule" and the IC doesn't have the rule, it doesn't matter if he's in a unit when they test, he doesn't have the rule and can't benefit from it.

Furthermore, if you look under the "special rules" section on pg 39 it outlines this.

What part of "every model" states that it has to have the red thirst to retain the effects of the red thirst rule. It should be considered a continuous effect, seeing as its treated as having the special rule from failing the test and that has its own section on 39 that states that it retains the effect after it is no longer part of the unit.
You test, fail, effect of the rule is triggered. As such it is a ic and continuous effects, not special rule issue.

lostinthewarp wrote:
What part of "every model" states that it has to have the red thirst to retain the effects of the red thirst rule. It should be considered a continuous effect, seeing as its treated as having the special rule from failing the test and that has its own section on 39 that states that it retains the effect after it is no longer part of the unit.
You test, fail, effect of the rule is triggered. As such it is a ic and continuous effects, not special rule issue.

Because the IC is his own unit regardless to being in the squad and he does not have that rule. If he did, you would still have to test separately for him even if he was in a unit that had the rule as well.

The qualifier of "every unit with this rule" is what restricts "every model in the unit" to only affect those that have the rule.

It's absolutely a special rule issue because it was a special rule that gave the bonuses. Ongoing effects are, as the book states, if blinded by a psyker power or something. That is more in reference to abilities from enemies affecting a unit with an IC or an IC joining after the fact.