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There are a few attacks in the game which allow you to single out an individual model in a unit as long as you have LOS to them. Rule of Burning Iron from the Lore of Metal, Hochland Long Rifles, and the Hunter's Talon are three examples.

Someone suggested to me the other night that if the firing/casting model was on higher ground than the knight lance, that he could draw LOS over the knights to see the Damsel.

What do you think?

Can the damsel draw line of sight to you? No.....? Well then you can not draw line of sight to the damsel.

Who says she wouldn't be able to draw LOS to me (assuming I was in her front 90 degree arc)?

My question hinges on how higher ground works, allowing models to see and be seen over other models. I do expect, naturally, that the guy on hill would be visible over everyone else in return.

Can you give me an answer with quotes or paraphrases from the rules? I'd like to know if this is legal, both for my own use and for use against me.

Brettonian Army Book page 41, Forming the Lance. A damsel or prophetess that is not in the front rank obviously has no line of sight.

Pretty clear there.

Is that a quote? Because the basic rules specify that models block LOS to other models, but they also designate special cases when you can see OVER other models (even in your own unit), such as when shooting at a Large Target.

1) When shooting at a Large Target, any number of models in the unit may fire, regardless of ranks.

2) When shooting from an elevated position, two ranks may fire, even though the back rank can't normally see the target. Likewise, they can see over intervening units that are lower than them.

3) When shooting at an elevated target, units can see over other units.

I'd say the argument is sound. If you're on a hill with Long Rifles (for example), then you could pick off a Damsel. (The truly evil thing about this example is that she won't be getting a "Look out, Sir!" roll... )

response to 1: This is taken from 'shooting at large targets' not from targeting same sized models regardless of elevation. Yes, the whole unit may fire at large targets, but not to equal sized ones. Now if damsel was a 'large target' then yes, she could be picked out. response to 2: Read yoru second sentence. "the can see over intervening units that are lower than them." Units not models. If one is elevated, one can avoid the unit infront of the unit one wishes to target. Unfortunately this is refering to units - not models in units. Can't pick out a character in a unit unless the weapon/spell has the ability to negate this rule. response to 3: Again, "units can see over other units". This is targeting an elevated unit which can't be 'screened' by another lower (i.e. no elevated on the same hill) unit. One can again see over another unit (to target the elevated unit) but NOT target a model within a unit. Damsels are in the 2nd rank - unless someone runs them with a minimum sized knight unit and then she's in the front rank. The only thing that can target hit her via ranged attack are things similar to cannons, bolt throwers, and templates. But there's the look out rule... my 2 pesos

I can't see any rule that lets you do it.

You can shoot over units at other units, not over models/ranks. The front rank of a unit is not a 'unit.' It's a little hazy because there's no hard cut rule on when you can see a character in a unit other than that if they're in the front rank (or the rank facing you) you can see'em for purposes of things like the few sniping attacks.

The elevation rule is pretty clear that it only affects units, however, and not what you can see within a unit.

Is there some magical barrier preventing me from seeing the back of a unit if I'm on a hill? If I can draw my Line of Sight clear over a unit, doesn't that mean that I can see the guys in back? Because if I can't see the guys in back, then I can't see anything past them, either.

You can't see the guys in back because the rules don't allow you to see characters in the back ranks of units. Yarr.

What does it specify that you can pick out your target via "Scientific Accuracy"? If it states that you can pick out any model you'd like to target, then I would have to say that you can snipe out any model in a unit you can choose.

By this same regards, what if a Skaven hero / character is in the back of the unit. Can you snipe them out too?

Anyway a quick thought.

As an example, the HLR says that I can target any model I can see. If I'm on a hill, I can the see the head of every model in a given unit that is lower than me.

To suggest that I could only see the front rank of said unit would have to mean that I can't see past them.

Who says she wouldn't be able to draw LOS to me (assuming I was in her front 90 degree arc)?

If she is in a rear rank and on lower ground than you then NO. If you claim that she could then all multi rank shooting units on the ground level could fire onto a hill with all ranks.

Is there some magical barrier preventing me from seeing the back of a unit if I'm on a hill?

Yes, the model in front of it.

the HLR says that I can target any model I can see

Correct and in order to 'see' a model you would need to draw legal LOS to it. You cannot draw LOS to a model in a rear rank legally when you are standing in front of it no matter how high up you are.

The rulebook says that if you're up on a hill your LOS to models/units below is based on real physical LOS.  It actually suggests that you crouch over the table and check.  By this standard it would seem that I could do it, as long as the knight beside her didn't completely block the view.

Mannahnin,

By this standard it would seem that I could do it, as long as the knight beside her didn't completely block the view.

That's why all those Brettonian Knights have those HUGE plumages

That's why all those Brettonian Knights have those HUGE plumages

Good thing the Damsel models tend to be holding something aloft, then...

As I believe Ed used to say, "Play the game, not the rules."

As I believe Ed used to say, "Play the game, not the rules."

I thought that was AK.

It's KiMonnarez, actually. But still, the line fits.

Yeah, AK is my special name for KiMonnarez. It doesn't really work, but his name has a K, and so does AK.

DaIronGob has a good point. By the arguments presented, it would follow that a ranked unit of archers on lower ground would be able to fire with all ranks at any unit on a hill. Fantasy rules being what they are, that doesn't feel right. If you can't do one, then I'd say you can't do the other.

p97: If a character is part of a unit which consists of at least five rank-and-file models of similar size in total then he cannot be shot at. Any shots against the unit will hit ordinary troopers and not the character.

So unless your magic-lady is in a unit of less than five models, she can't be targeted.

So unless your magic-lady is in a unit of less than five models, she can't be targeted.

Unless you're using specific attacks, such as Hochland Long Rifles, 'Eadbutt, and a handful of other attacks that let you pick out a specific model in a unit. Hence the point of this entire thread.

Lance formation. No LOS to the Damsel.

standard formation xxxxDx (x = unit/troopers, D = Damsel).

Standard formation shoot her. As long as she's in the 2nd rank, she can't be targeted.

DaIronGob has a good point.

I DO!?!?!

I mean, YEA I do!

I can see the special attacks coming into play and in the end would have to go by a case by case basis during each individual game. the Hochland Long Rifle does allow you to pick models out of a unit that you have LoS to... and the rules do say that about models on hill being able to use model's eye view...

That's why you do it twice. Target the model in front of her, and then you have LOS to her. Since you can target a specific model, that model must be removed. Or just take a Chaos Lord with the Bindings of Slaanesh and wipe her clean off the face of the Earth.

Posted By GreenMonkeyoDeath on 03/22/2006 12:20 PM:

That's why you do it twice. Target the model in front of her, and then you have LOS to her. Since you can target a specific model, that model must be removed. Or just take a Chaos Lord with the Bindings of Slaanesh and wipe her clean off the face of the Earth.



If you want to be like that, I'll just fire a Helblaster at the unit and kill all the Knights around her, making her fair game.