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"Vargards Duty: ... Furthermore If an Enemy unit launches an assault on Zahndrek's unit, obyron immediately leaves his unit and must pile in to that combt regardless of how far from it he is.."

Does this mean he Joins Zahndrek's Squad? Or is he just assaulting the unit that he is fighting as an independent party?

You accidentally posted this in Fantasy. Also I think he would join Zahbdrehk's unit, but then again I am a new.

Check the rulebook for when an IC can join a unit. Not having it to hand, I forget the page number, but from memory it's down to coherency.

Note that the enemy unit has to actually succeed in launching the assault, not just declaring it. That means you move and pile-in Obyron immediately once the charge distance has been rolled and that first enemy model is placed in base contact, so you're always going to be within coherency of at least one other Necron (the one that's just been charged).

 Super Ready wrote:
Check the rulebook for when an IC can join a unit. Not having it to hand, I forget the page number, but from memory it's down to coherency.

Note that the enemy unit has to actually succeed in launching the assault, not just declaring it. That means you move and pile-in Obyron immediately once the charge distance has been rolled and that first enemy model is placed in base contact, so you're always going to be within coherency of at least one other Necron (the one that's just been charged).

It's not just coherency, it's coherency in your movement phase.

So he won't join Zahndreks unit until after the combat is over (because he can't join/leave while locked).

I always thought he just teleported into combat on his own.

I suppose if he survived that assault phase and was in coherency he would count as joining the squad when the next movement phase came around.

 Praxiss wrote:
I always thought he just teleported into combat on his own.

I suppose if he survived that assault phase and was in coherency he would count as joining the squad when the next movement phase came around.

Only if the combat is over. IC's can't join units that are locked in combat.

Ah, so i guess until the combat is over he would be a unit of 1.

Yep, you got it. That said, most of the time you 'want' people directing attacks at (and preferrably, missing) him to unleash a truly vicious Cleaving Counter-blow. 3 wounds and Armour Class 2+ go a long way.

Hm...this brings up a good question though, does the charging unit count as having made a disordered charge now?

Does obyron pile in and attack immediately (since pile in and attacks are at the same step as one another)?

Does he not teleport/pile in until Initiative 2 of that Fight?

Questions questions...

Kevin949 wrote:Hm...this brings up a good question though, does the charging unit count as having made a disordered charge now?

No. Charging unit did not declare it is charging two (or more) units, so charge is not disordered.

Kevin949 wrote: Does obyron pile in and attack immediately (since pile in and attacks are at the same step as one another)?
Does he not teleport/pile in until Initiative 2 of that Fight?

Now these are good strict RAW questions.
There are at least two reasons why Obyron doesn't attack immediately (ie out of Initiative order)
1) Note that Vargar Obyron must "pile in" or " 'pile in' " not "Pile In". Strict RAW these are different, like Wounds and wounds are different.
2) When Vargar Obyron piles in to the target unit, his Initiative step has not been reached. Therefore, he can't make attacks at that point, even if he was making a "Pile In" move, which he is not technically doing.

1) is also the reason why he teleports in immediately and not at I2.

Well if you remember, the codex was for fifth edition rules. And I'm sorry but I find it absolutely ludicrous to says wounds and Wounds, Pile In and pile in, are any different. And no RAW says they are. You show me in the rulebook where it says 'W'ounds are different from 'w'ounds and then I'll conceded. Until that point, I do not accept that.

Now that being said, I'll address your first point about the disordered charge. I agree. And I did figure that was the way it was, it just popped into my mind.

Second point(s) now. If you read the entire rule for obyron, it is called a pile in move. I'll wait while you check.....................................................................................................................................

Now that being said, pile in moves and attacks are done at the same time under the new rules...so, again, is it immediately (I.E. init10) or is it "immediately at his initiative".

Like I said, Strict RAW. Strict RAW interpretations are often 'bad', as they mean Marneus Calgar is not a Chapter Master, Master of Forge is not a Techmarine etc.

And read the attacks portion again, you're only partially correct about Pile Ins and attacks happening at same time. That is, Pile In happening same Init Step is required but not sufficient part for attacks to happen. What you're missing is this line in rules:
"When their Initiative step is reached, models with that Initiative who are still alive must attack." (BYB, page 24)

And where are you getting the I10? There's no rules support for Vargard Obyron making his pile in move at I10, he makes it immediately after charging unit has been moved. This happens before start of Fight sub-phase.

See Charge Sub-phase rules on page 20 about what is "launching an assault".

Luide wrote:
Like I said, Strict RAW. Strict RAW interpretations are often 'bad', as they mean Marneus Calgar is not a Chapter Master, Master of Forge is not a Techmarine etc.

And read the attacks portion again, you're only partially correct about Pile Ins and attacks happening at same time. That is, Pile In happening same Init Step is required but not sufficient part for attacks to happen. What you're missing is this line in rules:
"When their Initiative step is reached, models with that Initiative who are still alive must attack." (BYB, page 24)

And where are you getting the I10? There's no rules support for Vargard Obyron making his pile in move at I10, he makes it immediately after charging unit has been moved. This happens before start of Fight sub-phase.

See Charge Sub-phase rules on page 20 about what is "launching an assault".

I wasn't "getting it" from anywhere, but we have to determine at what step he does his teleport. So basically, he can still get hit by HoW attacks as well. *Shrug* Oh well.

But yes, you're right about the pile in and attacks, I got mixed up a little since normally you're doing your pile in at the same time as your attacks anyway, so I was wrong there.

Thanks for clarifying on the ICs thing, I was curious to see the outcome.

I think the best way of explaining the pile-in/attacks issue is that you're given permission to pile-in and then perform your attacks at that specific stage of the Assault phase. It doesn't mean that any other pile-in moves automatically trigger attacks, as you're not given any permission to perform attacks outside of your Initiative step (in this case, anyway. Of course there are exceptions, like Gabriel Seth and Obyron's own counter-attacks).

The way i see it Obyron would still hit at I2 - there is nothing to say otherwise.

When the charge is declared against Zahndrekh, Obyron jumps to his masters side via teleport.

I see this as he basically pops up next to Zahndrekh (being treated as a 1 model unit) just as the attacking unit gets there, in a very cinematic "WTF!?" moment.

He joins the combat (piles in) and then hits at his own Iniative.

My question is this - if the attackers have declared a charge against Zahndrekh (and his unit), and Obyron appears and joins the combat, can the attackers then elect to hit Obyron instead (having already declared their target)? Or does Obyron get a free round of combat without fear of being hit himself?

They can hit him, as he's still part of the combat having piled in. He's therefore engaged at the point that the models attack, at their Initiative step - that's an important effect of now having pile-ins at every Initiative step.

What the attackers CAN'T do, is attempt to get into base contact with him while ignoring the original unit - they must still try and get as many models into contact with the original unit as they can, as that's who they declared the charge against. That's also the basis of it not counting as a disordered charge.

Quick note here:
Obyron only jumps in to the combat after all models in the charging unit have moved, as it is done "If enemy unit launches an assault on Zanhdredkh's unit" and 6e has changed unit has 'launched an assault' to mean the "moved it into contact with the enemy unit".

Fake-edit: Actually, that line in page 20 can be read two ways. It's possible that unit has 'launched an assault' even if it doesn't manage to get into contact with target unit.
Ah, the joys of mixed 5e in 6e rule wordings.

So timeline, it works like this: (Assume charge move is sufficient)
A) Charge sub-phase
1) Unit declares charge against Zanhdrek's unit.
2) Resolve overwatch etc. Roll charge move. Make charge move.
3) Charge moves are finished. Obyron 'piles in' to the combat. Note that as it is not Fight sub-phase, there's no Initiative steps at this point.
B) End of Charge sub-phase
C) Fight sub-phase proceeds normally. Basically it works as if unit had charged both Zahndrek and Obyron but had special rule saying they do not suffer from disordered charge and Obyron could not do Overwatch.

Well obyron has no ranged weapon so overwatch doesn't matter for him.

Also, the assault isn't launched if the unit doesn't make it into contact with the charge receiver, it is a failed assault at that point.

The reason I say this is because the very first line of the fight sub-phase says "With all the assaults launched" or something similar to that. As well, in the beginning of the assault rules it describes "launching an assault" as having successfully made it into base contact.

Luide - as it's "immediately" after a charge has been launched, I always read this as moving Obyron right after that first model makes it into base contact, as that's the point that the assault is successfully launched. I do see your point in both arguments, though.