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Main event:
Red corner Bloodiest of the Bloodthirsters - in the Blue corner Urizen ( from heresy time )

o and for just for fun - preliminary fight :
Guilliman in stais vs Lion in stasis (who will rise up first and throw a lethal blow)
Referee: Fulgim's talking sword

An'ggrath does not take kindly to other claimants to the title "most powerful Bloodthirster", even if it is from Ka'bandha.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
An'ggrath does not take kindly to other claimants to the title "most powerful Bloodthirster", even if it is from Ka'bandha.

How did Lorgar then stomped him ?And later that Iquisitor in a personal combat (with the aid of GK)? Kabby broke Sang's legs....enough said:-) Btw that was always mystery to me...

 DarthMarko wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
An'ggrath does not take kindly to other claimants to the title "most powerful Bloodthirster", even if it is from Ka'bandha.

How did Lorgar then stomped him ?And later that Iquisitor in a personal combat (with the aid of GK)? Kabby broke Sang's legs....enough said:-) Btw that was always mystery to me...

Kabby got banished sev times by sanguinary guard and GK's

There has been a lot of debate as to which Bloodthirster is the strongest, as in many-a-case, their fluff will quote them as the "strongest" or "mightiest of Khornes servants" same with skarbrand etc, etc... But Ka'bandha did have his back snapped in half by sanguinius later in the battle for terra at the pinnacle of the Heresy. There also are Khorne daemon princes quoted as being stronger than any of the other daemon prince primarchs, "Doombreed is a mighty Daemon Prince of the Blood God Khorne, responsible for leading a Black Crusade against the Imperium. He is older and more powerful than even the mighty Daemon Primarchs" (according to lexicanum and the chaos space marine codex) Then it becomes a question if any of the Daemon Primarchs are stronger than sanguinius and it is just an ongoing battle for who is the strongest of khornes servants...

 DarthMarko wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
An'ggrath does not take kindly to other claimants to the title "most powerful Bloodthirster", even if it is from Ka'bandha.

How did Lorgar then stomped him ?And later that Iquisitor in a personal combat (with the aid of GK)? Kabby broke Sang's legs....enough said:-) Btw that was always mystery to me...

Rex had An'ggraths truename, that's kinda cheating. And I could ask you why Sanguinius stomped Ka'bandha, but that wouldn't lead anywhere either.

But Lorgar didn't...and he was a step down from Sanguinius...but fair point -
and btw with this unfanboyish thread I wanted to see how many people would actually pick someone who they don't like or hate ( pure objectivity ) and see how many people are really willing to get involved in rather uninteresting duel...just my experiment thou....

and now I'm adding Lorgar vs Ka'bandha....

thisisnotpancho wrote:
There has been a lot of debate as to which Bloodthirster is the strongest, as in many-a-case, their fluff will quote them as the "strongest" or "mightiest of Khornes servants" same with skarbrand etc, etc... But Ka'bandha did have his back snapped in half by sanguinius later in the battle for terra at the pinnacle of the Heresy. There also are Khorne daemon princes quoted as being stronger than any of the other daemon prince primarchs, "Doombreed is a mighty Daemon Prince of the Blood God Khorne, responsible for leading a Black Crusade against the Imperium. He is older and more powerful than even the mighty Daemon Primarchs" (according to lexicanum and the chaos space marine codex) Then it becomes a question if any of the Daemon Primarchs are stronger than sanguinius and it is just an ongoing battle for who is the strongest of khornes servants...

There is exactly no piece of fluff that states Doombreed is stronger than the Daemon Primarchs. Not the 4e Chaos Marines codex, not the 2e Chaos codex, nor Liber Chaotica or whatever that book is called.

And the "There are stronger Daemon Princes than the Primarchs" thing seems to be as of now outdated, in the 5e Space Wolves codex, Angron is referred to as Khorne's strongest/mightiest servant.

Also, Aurelian Lorgar might very well beat Ka'Bhanda. It depends on how you think Ka'Bhanda compares to An'ggrath.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

There is exactly no piece of fluff that states Doombreed is stronger than the Daemon Primarchs. Not the 4e Chaos Marines codex, not the 2e Chaos codex, nor Liber Chaotica or whatever that book is called.

And the "There are stronger Daemon Princes than the Primarchs" thing seems to be as of now outdated, in the 5e Space Wolves codex, Angron is referred to as Khorne's strongest/mightiest servant.

From a Space Wolves perspective he might be, have they fought against Doombreed before or other older Daemon Princes, who knows?

It's quite possible that Doombreed is stronger than Angron. The quote on Daemon Princes form the existing Codex goes:

Although the Daemon Primarchs are perhaps the most infamous and abhorred Daemon Princes, there are a few who are older and even more powerful. There are Daemon Princes who bartered their souls to Chaos long before humankind left earth, brutal dictators and bloodthirsty warriors who gained power as mighty civilizations rose and fell throughout humanitys war-torn, tortured history.

and on Doombreed:

... and Doombreed was one of the first of his servants. His true name has long been forgotten, but he was once human, a mighty warlord who led armies that ravaged entire nations on Earth long, long ago. His acts of genocide and murder pleased the young god Khorne, who rewarded him and made him one of his first Daemon Princes.

This would seem to match the requirements of him being older and stronger than Angron, his true name is forgotten, he is one of the first and he was turned when Khorne was young.

Which version of Lorgar are we talking about? Pre-heresy Lorgar, or hersey-era Lorgar, or post-heresy Daemon Primarch Lorgar?

If its pre-heresy Lorgar then he gets his rear kicked, however the other two would probably beat Ka'Bandha, as he beat Ann'grath who is a Daemon of roughly equal or greater power. (Note that I say this about power just going on the fluff I am aware of, which state them both as the most powerful).

And the Lion beats Gulliman.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Also, Aurelian Lorgar might very well beat Ka'Bhanda. It depends on how you think Ka'Bhanda compares to An'ggrath.

Post-Aurelian Lorgar could probably defeat any daemon, since he's spent the last 10,000+(however long heresy lasted) years having knowledge of Chaos funneled directly to his head by the gods. The Word Bearers' mastery of demonancy is unparalleled. He may not match the daemons in strength or prowess, but he probably knows their true name and countless chants and rituals that would render them impotent and enslaved to his will.

Do we have even the faintest notion of the post-Heresy Lorgar's fighting potential? Unless I'm missing something, pretty much anybody who hasn't spent the last ten millennia sulking in his tower will win by default.

The second question by op would come down to time; becuase Guilliman is supposed to be healing, if he had enough time it would be about equal I belive, but if the Lion wakes first then Guilliman is screwed.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


and on Doombreed:

... and Doombreed was one of the first of his servants. His true name has long been forgotten, but he was once human, a mighty warlord who led armies that ravaged entire nations on Earth long, long ago. His acts of genocide and murder pleased the young god Khorne, who rewarded him and made him one of his first Daemon Princes.

This would seem to match the requirements of him being older and stronger than Angron, his true name is forgotten, he is one of the first and he was turned when Khorne was young.

Reading this the first thing i thought of was Hitler.

smUrfsrUs wrote:
Reading this the first thing i thought of was Hitler.

Which says very little that is impressive about the scope of your historical frame of reference. Try Genghis Khan, or Tamurlane, or Atilla.

 English Assassin wrote:
Do we have even the faintest notion of the post-Heresy Lorgar's fighting potential? Unless I'm missing something, pretty much anybody who hasn't spent the last ten millennia sulking in his tower will win by default.

Sulking, or in direct communion with the Ruinous Powers. He's constantly adding more and more volumes to his book.

There's no indication that a daemon primarch's physical prowess would degrade in any way, but he may well have lost whatever fighting skills he possessed through lack of practice. Then again, he could probably summon daemons from your nipples. It's hard to fight a guy when your nipples are daemons.

 English Assassin wrote:

smUrfsrUs wrote:
Reading this the first thing i thought of was Hitler.

Which says very little that is impressive about the scope of your historical frame of reference. Try Genghis Khan, or Tamurlane, or Atilla.

Yes, your right, after posting that I started to think about it and there were a lot more sensible options, it was just Hitler sprang straight to my mind. Also having just done my history GCSE where we covered the Nazis (the most interesting part of the course) may have helped.

smUrfsrUs wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

smUrfsrUs wrote:Reading this the first thing i thought of was Hitler.

Which says very little that is impressive about the scope of your historical frame of reference. Try Genghis Khan, or Tamurlane, or Atilla.

Yes, your right, after posting that I started to think about it and there were a lot more sensible options, it was just Hitler sprang straight to my mind. Also having just done my history GCSE where we covered the Nazis (the most interesting part of the course) may have helped.

Sorry, that was, on reflection, a somewhat ill-natured observation by me, particularly since you now point out that you've only just done your GCSEs.

In my defence, my grumpiness stems from teaching history to undergraduates who still know about nothing other than Europe 1919 - 1945...

Omegus wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Do we have even the faintest notion of the post-Heresy Lorgar's fighting potential? Unless I'm missing something, pretty much anybody who hasn't spent the last ten millennia sulking in his tower will win by default.

Sulking, or in direct communion with the Ruinous Powers. He's constantly adding more and more volumes to his book.

There's no indication that a daemon primarch's physical prowess would degrade in any way, but he may well have lost whatever fighting skills he possessed through lack of practice. Then again, he could probably summon daemons from your nipples. It's hard to fight a guy when your nipples are daemons.

Nipple-daemons would be a challenge, and I would agree that they're a possibility; in context the problem with the question is that we just don't have any data other than nebulous possibilities with which to answer it.

 English Assassin wrote:

In my defence, my grumpiness stems from teaching history to undergraduates who still know about nothing other than Europe 1919 - 1945...

Some of us here are just used to your grumpiness in general

smUrfsrUs wrote:
The second question by op would come down to time; becuase Guilliman is supposed to be healing, if he had enough time it would be about equal I belive, but if the Lion wakes first then Guilliman is screwed.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


and on Doombreed:

... and Doombreed was one of the first of his servants. His true name has long been forgotten, but he was once human, a mighty warlord who led armies that ravaged entire nations on Earth long, long ago. His acts of genocide and murder pleased the young god Khorne, who rewarded him and made him one of his first Daemon Princes.

This would seem to match the requirements of him being older and stronger than Angron, his true name is forgotten, he is one of the first and he was turned when Khorne was young.

Reading this the first thing i thought of was Hitler.

I doubt that Roboute is healing, since it is impossible for anything inside a stasis field to change.

And nah, Hitler doesn't fit the Khorne aesthetic, would more likely be someone like Ghengis Khan.

 English Assassin wrote:
Nipple-daemons would be a challenge, and I would agree that they're a possibility; in context the problem with the question is that we just don't have any data other than nebulous possibilities with which to answer it.

I was going by the last time we saw Lorgar personally, where he felled An'ggrath the Unbound, proceeded to become even more powerful, and telepathically made Horus his own personal Sally.

I guess it depends on how you feel Aurelian Lorgar compares to Sanguinius, which is a hard comparison to make.

Post-Aurelian Lorgar hasn't done much, but he is basically the high priest of Chaos as a whole, and IMO should be able to beat Ka'Bhanda, and maybe even the other Primarchs (I don't know if being the head Chaos Undivided guy beats being the head servants of individual deities, like Magnus or Angron are).

Well, both Tzeench and Khorne have many servants, and Magnus and Angron are far from their foremost champions (though certainly they are big favs). Angron occasionally shows up to wreck shop, but no more than any of the greater Bloodthirsters mentioned in this thread. He's not even described as his greatest Champion. Tzeench isn't the type to focus all of his endeavors on one thing, and seems content to leave Magnus sulking in his tower.

Lorgar's position is relatively unique. Although there are a number of daemon princes of Chaos as a whole, there aren't any we are aware of that are essentially raw conduits of Chaos lore.

 FinalAnswer wrote:

I doubt that Roboute is healing, since it is impossible for anything inside a stasis field to change.

And nah, Hitler doesn't fit the Khorne aesthetic, would more likely be someone like Ghengis Khan.

Genghis Khan is probably Uraka the Warfiend. I'd say Moctezuma II fits Doombreed perfectly: killed loads of people, sacrificed blood and collected skulls.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 FinalAnswer wrote:

I doubt that Roboute is healing, since it is impossible for anything inside a stasis field to change.

And nah, Hitler doesn't fit the Khorne aesthetic, would more likely be someone like Ghengis Khan.

Genghis Khan is probably Uraka the Warfiend. I'd say Moctezuma II fits Doombreed perfectly: killed loads of people, sacrificed blood and collected skulls.

I'd assume he'd be himself. Moctezuma fits perfectly as a Khorne DP though.

Garvy wrote:

Genghis Khan is probably Uraka the Warfiend. I'd say Moctezuma II fits Doombreed perfectly: killed loads of people, sacrificed blood and collected skulls.

Well, asides from him, there's always the lovable Vlad the Impaler. He's definitely someone Khorne would be impressed with.

Let's not forget king Richard (Lionhart)...He is Bloodthirster 100%

 Omegus wrote:
Well, both Tzeench and Khorne have many servants, and Magnus and Angron are far from their foremost champions (though certainly they are big favs). Angron occasionally shows up to wreck shop, but no more than any of the greater Bloodthirsters mentioned in this thread. He's not even described as his greatest Champion. Tzeench isn't the type to focus all of his endeavors on one thing, and seems content to leave Magnus sulking in his tower.

Lorgar's position is relatively unique. Although there are a number of daemon princes of Chaos as a whole, there aren't any we are aware of that are essentially raw conduits of Chaos lore.

Angron is directly referred to as the first among the favored of the Blood God in the Space Wolves codex, page 22. Oh, and he is referred to the most terrible of all of Khorne's servants (Indicated as such via comparison with Bloodthirsters).

Pretty sure that old story on Angron vs. the GKs says similar but I don't have that story on hand.