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Hi, sorry if this has been asked before, it came up in a game this evening and we weren't sure how to rule it in a raw fashion.

My opponent had a 50 man platoon hiding on a skyshield and began to move them down, rolling a double 2 for the difficult terrain roll. This left roughly 20 guys at the bottom of the shield and 30 on top. I shot the unit next turn and we couldn't really decide if only the guys on top get the 4++ or the whole unit.

The rule: " Units on top of the shielded skyshield have a 4++ against shooting attacks".

Unfortunately it doesn't say models, so does this leave it open to abuse of having 1 guy on there giving an entire 50 man squad congaed to the other side of the board a 4++?

Its models, so you check to see who shots are getting allocated to and then roll appropriate saves.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its models, so you check to see who shots are getting allocated to and then roll appropriate saves.

Actually the OP is correct it says Units.

"Units on top of a shielded Skyshleld Landing Pad have a 4+ invulnerable save against enemy Shooting attacks." P.115

I guess that would apply to everyone then.

So I'll just need one guy on the Skyshield to get the 4+ invuln then, cause its technically still a unit on top of the skyshield.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I guess that would apply to everyone then.

So I'll just need one guy on the Skyshield to get the 4+ invuln then, cause its technically still a unit on top of the skyshield.

Could also argue that if one model is on the ground then the unit is on the ground.

But if 1/2 the squad is on the skyshield and the other 1/2 isn't, is the unit even in 2" coherency? We are working in 3 dimensions here.

I would play it like normal terrain, i.e. model by model. Playing it as "the unit" is just silly. You could have two 50 man blobs, each with a single guy on top and the rest spread out around the battlefield, for a 4++ from all angles.

RAW the unit would get the save, even if only 1 guy remains on it. Nothing is wrong with a unit occupying 2 spots, on and below the shield.

Alright thanks guys, seems we need another house rule...

Unit is a generic term. Cover is determined on a model by model basis. If you are shooting at the unit and the closest model is up top, then he will have a 4++ cover save. If the closest models are down below, then they will not have the 4++ ( they will have whatever the bottom was agreed to have).

In this case you will want to use the Focus Fire rule, and only shoot the guys down below, if you want to avoid the 4++.

Focus Fire does not ignore Invulnerable saves, only Cover saves.

"If you choose to Focus Fire, choose a cover save value." (18)

Yes that is the problem, all the rules for focus firing, and LOS/cover issues all mentioned cover saves, since this unit had an invulnerable save there are no rules describing the problem we had really.

Since the skyshield says unit I would apply it to the entire unit, but I would take it that 50%+ of the unit would need to be on it to gain this.

That is the real question. When is a unit considered to be "in" terrain?

If only 1 model is in the skyshield and you are claiming that the unit gets the invulnerable save, then as soon as 1 of my Termagants enters area terrain the unit does not have to keep moving in.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Focus Fire does not ignore Invulnerable saves, only Cover saves.

"If you choose to Focus Fire, choose a cover save value." (18)

Interesting.. that does muddle the waters a bit. However, I would say that only models on top of the Skyshield would get a 4++ save, and models below wouldnt, just based on how the rule is worded.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Focus Fire does not ignore Invulnerable saves, only Cover saves.

"If you choose to Focus Fire, choose a cover save value." (18)

Interesting.. that does muddle the waters a bit. However, I would say that only models on top of the Skyshield would get a 4++ save, and models below wouldnt, just based on how the rule is worded.

Except the rule is worded to affect whole units, not distinct models.

Not purposely ressurecting a 2 week old thread, but I'm glad I searched and found this thread.

I was thinking of taking orks as an ally. And popping a battlewagon full of lootas on this thing. I wanted to know if: if I were to push the bw out as far as I could without it falling off the skyshield (i.e. with overhang), and then later furled it, if my bw that would then be on some insane angle pointing up into the sky, would still get the save.
The idea was having a bigmek with KFF in the wagon until my army ds'd in. Then he'd jump out, move closer to the centre (out of los of most ground units) and provide spot repairs to the other vehicles on it.

You go by TLOS for saves.

All Shielded, and Unfurled do are what the rules say they do.

Are there rules that give permission to adjust the model mid-game that I missed somewhere?

The 4+ invuln only requires you to be on the pad.

The 3+ cover save(because its a fortification) requires the normal cover criteria to be met.

So the 4+ is basically unconditional while on the pad and its furled.

Can you furl the skyshield while models are standing on the edges? This conceivably could lead to a situation that is not covered by the rules.

The rule says only that "the top surface" - nothing about the shields part. If you only allow models to stand on the surface, not the shields it solves a lot of problems.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
Can you furl the skyshield while models are standing on the edges? This conceivably could lead to a situation that is not covered by the rules.

The rules say you can go to shielded mode if it is unfurled, it does not mention model locations so the models can be anywhere touching the pad and put it into shielded mode.

I see nothing that says you can alter the Pad mid-game, so if the edge walls are up they always stay up. if they are down they always stay down. This applies to Shielded and Unfurled modes.

The rules say you can go to shielded mode if it is unfurled, it does not mention model locations so the models can be anywhere touching the pad and put it into shielded mode.

I see nothing that says you can alter the Pad mid-game, so if the edge walls are up they always stay up. if they are down they always stay down. This applies to Shielded and Unfurled modes.

"At the beginning of the Movement phase, before rolling for Reserves, a model in base contact... can change its configuration from shielded to unfurled (and vice versa)....)

As long as any player has a model in base contact with the Skyshield, they can change configuration on any turn, before rolling for Reserves..

Edited for clarification..

At the beginning of the Movement phase, before rolling for reserves,
a model in base contact with a Skyshield landing Pad can change
its configuration from shielded to unfurled (or vice versa). If there
are models from both sides in base contact with the landing pad, its
configuration cannot be changed.

.. course you can change it , very much the point of this terrain piece.

Personally I'd treat thsi in a similar manner to cover and dertermine it on a % basis.

.. course I'd aslo say that if you were letting him get down with a 2" move you were being very sporting too, we normally plat it as a 3" move but YMMV of course.

Yes, you can change its configuration from shielded to unfurled.

So you can use the Shielded rules, or the Unfurled rules.

Cover is explicitly done on a model by model basis. The notation for the skyshield only denotes what the value of the cover save given by the fortification is.

Yes, but the issue here is that the Skyshield gives 4+ invuln saves to a unit on top, seperate from the normal 3+ cover save for being a fortification.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but the issue here is that the Skyshield gives 4+ invuln saves to a unit on top, seperate from the normal 3+ cover save for being a fortification.

It is only when the skyshield is in a shielded configuration that units on top get a 4+ invul save. When it is unfurled, the top is open terrain and the cover save that is granted is open to interpretation.

The cover save granted is always a 3+(fortification)

However, as always, you need 25% obscurement to get it. Highly dependent on the angle of the shot and such. Naturally, with the platform Shielded and the side flaps up you will have a much greater change if getting that 25% obscurement. if not garunteed to get it.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The cover save granted is always a 3+(fortification)

Like the cover save for models on the roof of a bastion, also a fortification?

And the skyshield terrain type is "unique" not "fortification".

 time wizard wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The cover save granted is always a 3+(fortification)

Like the cover save for models on the roof of a bastion, also a fortification?

And the skyshield terrain type is "unique" not "fortification".

yes, bastions are fortifications.

Battlements give a cover save dependent on what the building is. If its a wooden hut, its only going to be a 5+. If its a Rockrete hab block its going to be a 4+. etc...

Fortification is both a Terrain type and things bought in a specific FOC. Both will give a 3+ cover save.

The reason the Aegis Defense Line doesn't give a 3+ cover save is because its own rules say it gives a 4+ cover save.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Battlements give a cover save dependent on what the building is. If its a wooden hut, its only going to be a 5+. If its a Rockrete hab block its going to be a 4+. etc...

I beg to differ. From the latest main rule FAQ:

Q. What is the armour value of battlements? (p95)
A: Battlements have no armour value as they are not a
building. They serve to protect any models on the roof of
the building in the same way as barricades and walls (see
page 104), offering a 4+ cover save.