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I'm looking to construct bit of fluff regarding an autonomous sub Empire of the IoM.

My reasoning comes not strictly from the Astartes having their fief worlds (To say nothing of the Ultramarines small empire), but from some of the new fluff int he Horus Herasy series. That is, even some Terran states were allowed autonomy under the united Terran government (Hy-Brasil), or even nominal independence with the understanding of eventual incorporation (Boeotia). Mars was incorporated as a permanent ally, and the people of Saturn were also nominally incorporated into the Imperium as ally's, though the Saturnine fleets were eventually brought into the larger Imperial navy (or at least those were the plans, and then the Heresy broke out - who knows the Saturnine fleet may still be an independent branch of the Imperial navy into M41. Now it's more prudent to mention the Ultramar, which the Emperor allowed to stand as a continued self governing entity within the Imperium even after reuniting Guilliman with his Legion.

So with all this presented, think I can get away with constructing an autonomous sector or two spanning mini empire in the IoM? A realm not beholden to administratum by word of treaty and a loyalty pledged explicitly to a now incapacitated emperor, rather then the Imperium itself?

The High Lords speak for the Emperor; anything binding the various worlds to Him is now binding them to the Senate. The Emperor isn't actually treated as "dead", it's just that the High Lords act as his proxies in matters of state.

At least I would assume so, given that the IG Codex still refers to the Emperor when it talks of any planetary governor's privileges and obligations.

That being said, if you'd like to go ahead with your idea but also not disregard GW fluff, you could perhaps find a compromise by stating that your mini-empire has seceded a couple decades ago, and the Imperium didn't actually notice it yet. Needless to say, this would require an internal rebellion against the local Arbites and Ministorum presence (or perhaps the Ministorum Cardinal going rogue himself!), but there you go.

The Saturnite fleet from Saturn was still somehwat independent, keeping its ship, traditions and uniforms when they got wrapped into the Imperial Army during the Great Crusade.

Actually it could work if you explain it with a document from the Emperor similar to the the Rogue Trade certificates. Or you can do like I do and just say your empire was discovered after the Horus Heresy and it has been allowed relatively free rein because so far it has proven usefull to the Imperium.

I'll probably go with a treaty of co-operation for autonomy/ rogue trader like privileges for my personal fluff - a separate army and fleet that acts in concert with Imperial forces without being subject to them. I'd rather not go down the route of succession, as eventually it tends to end poorly for those seceding

Well, the repercussions for secession would not have to occur before M42. *wink wink nudge nudge*

But you're right, the RT stuff might be a more elegant way out. At least this way you can use allies!
What I'd recommend in this case would just be to make sure that your "mini empire" is located on the edge of Imperial space, just outside the border. It's only a matter of time until the Imperium would annex those worlds (let's keep in mind that this is part of why Rogue Traders were given all these privileges) and install the Rogue Trader's lineage as the new Imperial Commander of a brand new subsector, but who says it's gonna happen anytime soon?

I don't see why you can't have a region controlled by the IoM that isn't relatively autonomous due to the distance between them and Terra/other IoM holdings.

 Amaya wrote:
I don't see why you can't have a region controlled by the IoM that isn't relatively autonomous due to the distance between them and Terra/other IoM holdings.

Yes, it really depends what OP actually wants to gain from this autonomy. It's not like Earth actually messes a lot with local politics, apart from sending Ecclesiarchy Preachers, Tithe ships and Arbitrators.
Why the seditionist lust for independence from Terra's leash? I thought being part of a monolithic tyrannical regime was half the fun in playing a human faction in 40k.

Yes, there are many sources of fluff that point to the Imperium's grip over the entirety of human-populated worlds is non-existant, and that their hold over an awful lot of their worlds is really rather tenuous.

The only thing that is required for a planet to be "in" the imperium is that they train imperial guardsmen (whatever that means to them) to help their neighbors fight off the bad guys.

One particularly interesting thing from the 6th ed rulebook was when they talked about the ecclesiarchy. They make the point that when priests show up, they gently guide the population towards the emperor, no matter how many pagan traditions or local cultures they have to co-opt to make that happen. In the end, the various cults of the emperor look basically nothing like each other, but the important part is that the emperor is at the center of it.

Likewise with religion, so with politics. The imperium doesn't care who is in charge of the planet so long as SOME ONE is, and said someone both doesn't attack imperial forces and furthermore helps them out in times of need (read: always).

 Ailaros wrote:
The imperium doesn't care who is in charge of the planet so long as SOME ONE is, and said someone both doesn't attack imperial forces and furthermore helps them out in times of need (read: always).

Exactly so - for the most part the Imperium doesn't rule directly and cares nothing about who does as long as tithes are paid.

The OPs region could well be far enough out (or in such a sparsely-colonized sector) that the High Lords don't want to put money on keeping troops and fleets there. But hey, wasn't there a small interstellar trade realm discovered by a Rogue Trader back in M35? Planets that still build a few ships once in a while and have standing armies? Let's send someone to make a deal - they get to keep on doing what they do as long as we can have a cadre of Imperial officials stationed there, passing on any interesting data to the next Imperial sector over.

My desire, story wise is to make a mini-empire that still preserves glories from the era of the great crusade - the grandeur, optimism, and progressiveness of that era (as seen through the lens of the Horus Heresy series) is just way too cool to let rot 10K back in time, and in my mind it, along with Ultramar and who knows how many other realms are the ongoing justification for the Emperors sacrifice.

(In a dune like twist, I kinda like to think that the darkness of the 40k setting was an intentional goal of the Emperor, to eventually drive humanity off in certain directions of development, along with perhaps his eventual ascent to godhood to look over his species. The end result being that Humanity would fracture into many disparate states over the entire Galaxy, all strong enough to ensure that no Xenos threat or chaos corruption would threaten the species. I dont hold my breath so much in looking to convince others of that though!)

Carlovonsexron wrote:
My desire, story wise is to make a mini-empire that still preserves glories from the era of the great crusade - the grandeur, optimism, and progressiveness of that era (as seen through the lens of the Horus Heresy series) is just way too cool to let rot 10K back in time, and in my mind it, along with Ultramar and who knows how many other realms are the ongoing justification for the Emperors sacrifice.

(In a dune like twist, I kinda like to think that the darkness of the 40k setting was an intentional goal of the Emperor, to eventually drive humanity off in certain directions of development, along with perhaps his eventual ascent to godhood to look over his species. The end result being that Humanity would fracture into many disparate states over the entire Galaxy, all strong enough to ensure that no Xenos threat or chaos corruption would threaten the species. I dont hold my breath so much in looking to convince others of that though!)

That should work...
Obviously it will have problems from the Mechanicus and the Inquisition concerning the progressiveness (Though it'd depend on the Magos and Inquisitor involved).

 purplefood wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:
My desire, story wise is to make a mini-empire that still preserves glories from the era of the great crusade - the grandeur, optimism, and progressiveness of that era (as seen through the lens of the Horus Heresy series) is just way too cool to let rot 10K back in time, and in my mind it, along with Ultramar and who knows how many other realms are the ongoing justification for the Emperors sacrifice.

(In a dune like twist, I kinda like to think that the darkness of the 40k setting was an intentional goal of the Emperor, to eventually drive humanity off in certain directions of development, along with perhaps his eventual ascent to godhood to look over his species. The end result being that Humanity would fracture into many disparate states over the entire Galaxy, all strong enough to ensure that no Xenos threat or chaos corruption would threaten the species. I dont hold my breath so much in looking to convince others of that though!)

That should work...
Obviously it will have problems from the Mechanicus and the Inquisition concerning the progressiveness (Though it'd depend on the Magos and Inquisitor involved).

Ultramar has its own treaty with Mars and the Inquisition, both of whom have a looser hold on their traditional rights. It could work for another pocket empire.

 Lobukia wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:
My desire, story wise is to make a mini-empire that still preserves glories from the era of the great crusade - the grandeur, optimism, and progressiveness of that era (as seen through the lens of the Horus Heresy series) is just way too cool to let rot 10K back in time, and in my mind it, along with Ultramar and who knows how many other realms are the ongoing justification for the Emperors sacrifice.

(In a dune like twist, I kinda like to think that the darkness of the 40k setting was an intentional goal of the Emperor, to eventually drive humanity off in certain directions of development, along with perhaps his eventual ascent to godhood to look over his species. The end result being that Humanity would fracture into many disparate states over the entire Galaxy, all strong enough to ensure that no Xenos threat or chaos corruption would threaten the species. I dont hold my breath so much in looking to convince others of that though!)

That should work...
Obviously it will have problems from the Mechanicus and the Inquisition concerning the progressiveness (Though it'd depend on the Magos and Inquisitor involved).

Ultramar has its own treaty with Mars and the Inquisition, both of whom have a looser hold on their traditional rights. It could work for another pocket empire.

Ultramar also has a First Founding chapter of enormous political strength.
For a separate pocket empire it'd be a different thing all together.
It would still be possible but the many organisations of the Imperium would constantly be playing political games and trying to impose their various wills and agendas on it.

although it could still work if the empire was set up by the emperors decree as the high lords wont over rule the emperor ( imperial guard landraiders as an example)

alternativly they could have something thats incredibly valuble either the mechanicus or inquisition wants, that they give freely, as either is big and important enough to force the rest of the imperium to leave them alone

I'm saying it can work...
You don't need any super special magical device...
It's not uncommon for the Imperium to bump into a undiscovered mini empire of humans and fold them into the Imperium. They keep their autonomy in return for tithing men and psykers.

Anyone who is as progressive as you say will have interference from the Mechanicus as they try to establish themselves in the new territory.

purplefood wrote:You don't need any super special magical device... It's not uncommon for the Imperium to bump into a undiscovered mini empire of humans and fold them into the Imperium. They keep their autonomy in return for tithing men and psykers.

But I think the normal allegiance to the Adeptus Terra - complete with acceptance of Ecclesiarchal and Arbites authority and the tithe - is exactly what the OP dislikes for some reason and wants to avoid. Rather hard to justify that. :/

... unless perhaps you invent another Space Marine Chapter that has this region as some sort of protectorate, like a copy of Ultramar, just not quite as large?
That's about the only option I see if you want to keep it somewhat in line with studio fluff, tbh.

Yeah, the studio is a bit constricting, and often isnt very well thought out - which is why I prefer looking to the HH series, generally.

If there was a Marine chapter attached, I'd probably wrap a story around a loyalist luna wolf garrison/luna wolves trapped in the warp. -Rational being that since Horus was as great a negotiator as he was a warrior. This realm would be among the many he subsumed into the Imperium via diplomacy during the early stages of the great crusade, when expanding the Imperium at any cost (even remarkable concessions of autonomy) would have been acceptable. It would have been the period when the Emperor was still leading in person, and the treaty would have been bound and signed by Imperial decree - in person)

The end result being the come the end of the Heresy Guilliman had no better place to stick them.

But I'm not sold on the concept.

You could always say an Ultramarine successor is trying to recreate Ultramar in a separate part of the Imperium...
Incidentally it'snot that hard to work within the fluff you have just to know the... boundaries i guess.

The Empire very deliberately doesn't allow such sub-empires to exist, and would probably act immediately to break it up and re-establish proper imperial authority.

 Testify wrote:
The Empire very deliberately doesn't allow such sub-empires to exist, and would probably act immediately to break it up and re-establish proper imperial authority.

Not necessarily.
In areas where Imperial power is weak small regions have autonomy provided they send their tithe of men and allow the black ships to harvest psykers.

I find that very hard to believe. How could you trust the loyalty of men to the Imperium over their "sub-empire"? Or the loyalty of their governer?

It's not like it would be hard for the Imperium to send a messenger saying something like "If you are truly loyal to the Imperium of man, accept a governer on each planet or we will bury you. Signed, Emprah". Either they'd be loyal and comply, or disloyal and refuse/destroyed.

There is some oversight but unless there is cause to they usually leave them alone to do their own thing. Obviously there are the regular rules concerning heresy and technology.

Many planets have an autonomous government anyway. It's usually those of middling to some importance that have a full fledged imperial governance...

I've not heard of any Imperial world that doesn't have an Imperial Commander. That's kind of the theme.

What is being attempted here is creating a region of space that is "Imperial, but not really" because the OP doesn't like the fluff, and would rather move into the "special snowflake" territory than making it fit. It's a simple conflict of preferences. By now, I don't think there is much of a possibility for finding a compromise; the "in-between" would still sound somewhat weird whilst still leashing this new realm closer to the Adeptus Terra than the player wants. The Horus Heresy era is just a little too different in terms of religion and scientific enlightenment, so rather than twisting an awkward middle ground back and forth, it may be better to realise not every problem can be solved this way.

However, let's keep in mind that each and every player is perfectly free to alter the setting as he or she sees fit. We all have the freedom to choose how closely we want to follow a given source, or what we may wish to discard. No canon means that there are no absolute truths, and though most people obviously take the studio fluff as a common ground, there's no saying that this has to apply to everyone. GW wants you to make this game and your army your own.

This would be my pragmatic conclusion/recommendation.

The OP made one point - the IOM gradually integrating planets/star systems. Then jumped to a conclusion that this means they'd allow a "mini-empire". That is completely inconsistent with established fluff.

For the record I also don't see how that would relate to tabletop.

Well, no - the OP gave several examples of sub empires being allowed to exist - in fact, half the IoM is a sub empire, and every space marine chapter is a sub state. The IoM functions as a basic principle of autonomy over most of its worlds so long as a concessions are made in a few areas.

The Emperor was fully willing to wheel and deal and give concessions over jack boot occupation that would characterize later Imperial expansion - so long as the end result always served the same purpose - greater human unity, and loyalty to the Emperor. Specifics beyond those points were apparently negotiable, particularly early on in Imperial expansion during the Great Crusade. It's easy to see how a burgeoning Imperium, eager to expand its borders by means of war or peace would be willing to expand in terms of allied sub-states of the Hy Brasil/Mars/Saturn model.

Indeed, "established fluff" as it were largely has no reason to cover semi-autonomous areas, other then the space marine chapters, and depending on PoV, the worlds of the ecclesiarchy and Inquisition. If you do take those three examples, then the underlying logic would appear to be Importance = autonomy. Sufficient story building can account for importance, and sufficient story building accounts for sample bias. That is to say that 40k is an era of war - you're not going to get tales of diplomacy. But in 30k, before the Heresy? Sure thing, even if its only snippets - but those snippets paint a much more interesting and colorful painting than the outward appearance of 40k might have one believe.

Not everything in 40k has to be jack boots stomping over all things good, and the fluff has been so kind enough as to provide an elegant way out.

It has no game play value, but doesn't need to, as I don't play. I convert and model, and absorb the fluff because there are certain aspects of the setting I find compelling.

The thing is, the Imperium is more or less completely made up of autonomous regions.

Pay your Tithes, and you're pretty much free to do what you want, within reason. I mean, sure there are still meddlesome parties, but if you're willing to play the game, the Imperium leaves you alone. After all, there are countless other systems for them to be worried about.

Even amongst the meddlesome parties are a bunch of individuals or groups of individuals exercising their own autonomy. Again, so long as you pay your Tithes, you get left alone. The Administratum isn't one big, coherent, cohesive entity. If it was, it would actually work, lol.



That said, I'm happy to see that my "special snowflake" term has been co-opted on the forum. I co-opted it from Fight Club obviously, in turn Chuck Palahniuk co-opted it himself, however, I introduced it into the Dakka ecology. More amusing that it is by some of my most vicious and stubborn opponents. No greater victory than winning over an enemy I guess.

 Lynata wrote:
I've not heard of any Imperial world that doesn't have an Imperial Commander. That's kind of the theme.

GW dislikes anything not the king and his court. The few BL novels to have something not an imperial commander quickly get one because deus ex machina puts someone in charge. I can think of one or two, but on the whole, yes.

The only time we've ever seen an autonamous region allied with but not directly or officially controlled by the Imperium invariably requires either some sort of Emperor-grade precedent that noone in current times as the authority to overturn - much like the Emperor-granted Rogue Trader charters, or the region having something incredibly incredibly vital to the interests of the Imperium (or some part of it) that they simply cannot take by conquest or force (which is actually very hard to reason. either warfare might destroy/or disrupt that resource, or they're too large or effective a force to be easily conquered, or they have allies/political power of some kind on their side that allows them to bargain.) The Squats were an obvious example of this, but the AdMech falls into that same category.

You migth even blend the two - perhaps there is some really really ancient Rogue Trader charter (primarch or Emperor-granted) that lead to the creation of some autonomous region in ancient times, because it controls some key resource the Imperium may find vital but simpyl cannot take away from them (AdMech alliance, perhaps.)