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So this happened in my game yesterday

I assaulted a guardsman squad with my GJBs, and my opponent chose not to overwatch. My GJB made it to combat. I then declared another assault with my DE beast squad. He said he could overwatch against them because technically his guardsmen weren't "locked" in combat until the first initiative phase, which didn't happen until combat began. It wasn't a big deal, but it would definitely play into my tactics more should it have been a flamer squad.

Thoughts?

Your opponent was wrong.Once your first unit made it into combat,the two units are locked and ready for the assault phase.He cannot then say he is going to overwatch on the second unit charge.

Pedro Kantor wrote:
Your opponent was wrong.Once your first unit made it into combat,the two units are locked and ready for the assault phase.He cannot then say he is going to overwatch on the second unit charge.

That's how we play it.

You don't have to shoot the first unit that charges, but unless they fail their charge you won't get to overwatch against anyone else.

To back up what Pedro and infinity have said, pg. 23 says, under "Who Can Fight?", "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat"

The other side of that is they are not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-phase, as that is what defines them as being locked in combat.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The other side of that is they are not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-phase, as that is what defines them as being locked in combat.

Not so, the movement of the charge move by the UNIT, locks them in combat.

So then why would the BRB limit a charged unit to 1 Overwatch per turn?

Happyjew wrote:
So then why would the BRB limit a charged unit to 1 Overwatch per turn?

Overwatch happens before you roll your charge dice. Its possible to be charged by multiple units that do not make it into base to base.

Happyjew wrote:
So then why would the BRB limit a charged unit to 1 Overwatch per turn?

Why would the BRB do anything?

By RAW, a unit in BTB is locked in combat.

The other side of that is they are not locked in combat until the Fight Sub-phase, as that is what defines them as being locked in combat.

This argument is based on the statement that when you move the initial charge into BTB, then the rest of the unit cannot move. However, the Charge Move section clearly states that "All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move...." This comes before the Initial charger section that says move the first charger. The whole unit is moving, but it is resolved 1 at a time.

Right and as soon as the first model is in base contact, the whole unit is locked in combat and therefore cannot be moved. If you move a single model, the unit has moved.

Your missing the part where the "Whole unit" is moving. It may be resolved one at at time, but the whole unit makes their charge move...

Fragile wrote:
Your missing the part where the "Whole unit" is moving. It may be resolved one at at time, but the whole unit makes their charge move...

and they can not move when locked in combat.

So once the unit is locked in combat it can not move. (Except for pile-in moves)

If one model is in base contact in CC is the unit locked in CC?

Clearly the answer is a yes.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your missing the part where the "Whole unit" is moving. It may be resolved one at at time, but the whole unit makes their charge move...

and they can not move when locked in combat.

So once the unit is locked in combat it can not move. (Except for pile-in moves)

If one model is in base contact in CC is the unit locked in CC?

Clearly the answer is a yes.

And clearly your ignoring the whole section of rules at the top of pg 21.

"Charging units must attempt to engage as rnany opposing models in the enemy unit as possible with as many of their models as possible" P.21

That rule?

Remember that Can't Trumps Must. Permissive ruleset and all.

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

So one or more models in base contact? Check, Cant move.

Either: 1) They are not locked until the Fight sub-phase so you may Overwatch at any one assaulting unit.

Or 2) They are locked as soon as the initial charger makes base contact as Can't Trumps Must, and the rest of the rules on P.21 are useless.

I am inclined to say that 2 is not true, and 1 is true, as clearly they meant for more than one model to get into base contact when assaulting.

Lets use your argument since your still not reading those lines.

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. ....." P.23

At the end of my charge move, is your unit in BTB.

Yes... therefore locked in combat.. RAW

Units locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch...RAW

You must declare what units are charging what before you roll dice. Thats what allows your opponent to decide which unit to Overwatch against.

Xzerios wrote:
You must declare what units are charging what before you roll dice. Thats what allows your opponent to decide which unit to Overwatch against.

Not sure who your responding to Xzer, but pg 20

1. Declare Charge
2. Resolve Overwatch
3. Roll Charge Range.
4. Charge Move
5. Declare Next Charge.

Charges are resolved sequentially.

Fragile wrote:
Lets use your argument since your still not reading those lines.

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. ....." P.23

At the end of my charge move, is your unit in BTB.

Yes... therefore locked in combat.. RAW

Units locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch...RAW

I read those lines. but none of them over-ride the line about models locked in CC can not move except for Pile-in moves.

Once the first model makes it into base contact, you have to stop as you are now locked in CC, by Strict RAW.

That is why it is absurd to figure that they are locked in combat after the first charge move, as you would have to stop after moving the initial charger into base contact.

And since the Locked in combat rules are in the "FIGHT CLOSE COMBAT" (Capitalization left for the integrity of the quote) section, context tells us that if this has not happened yet then the unit is not yet locked in CC.

Pg 21. Moving Charging Models clearly states that .."ALL of the Models in a charging unit make their charge move....."

Not one at a time, like your trying to say. Your breaking context in so many ways arguing that you suddenly interrupt your charge move to say, now that you have model in BTB (which the rule allows) so you can't move any of the others that are already in the process of moving.

And you will say 'Cant trumps Must". By that same logic, if you move 1 member of your unit during the movement phase, you cannot move any others since that unit has already moved.

"After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire" P.21 you move sequentially, not all at once, you actually do move one at a time...

Your assertation is trumped by Page 23.

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move"

Once one model is touching, then the unit is locked in combat.

Once locked in combat it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move.

Cannot trumps must.

Or accept that "They are not locked until the Fight sub-phase so you may Overwatch at any one assaulting unit."

As it breaks less rules than:

"They are locked as soon as the initial charger makes base contact as Can't Trumps Must, and the rest of the rules on P.21 are useless."

The whole point of the specifier of only getting to shoot one over-watch per unit is that the first unit to charge may not make it into assault range.

Moving Initial charger tells you how to move the charging unit. This is after it states "All the models charge."

Again you do not stop in mid action to check whether you can Move. The game is sequential. When the unit initiated its charge, it was not in BTB. You do not check BTB again during that charge action.

Cannot trumps must.

You keep saying that but it doesnt have anything to do with the actions here. There is no Cannot.

Or accept that "They are not locked until the Fight sub-phase so you may Overwatch at any one assaulting unit."

Your making up rules to justify your position. This statement clearly violates far more RAW by saying the Initial charger suddenly locks out the rest of the charging unit by succeeding in his charge.

Fragile wrote:

Cannot trumps must.

You keep saying that but it doesnt have anything to do with the actions here. There is no Cannot.

Care to rethink that?

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move" P.23

Plus the Context of "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." being under the "FIGHT CLOSE COMBAT" section tells us they are not locked until they Fight a close combat.

Fragile wrote:

Or accept that "They are not locked until the Fight sub-phase so you may Overwatch at any one assaulting unit."

Your making up rules to justify your position. This statement clearly violates far more RAW by saying the Initial charger suddenly locks out the rest of the charging unit by succeeding in his charge.

It is actually to illustrate that the position of "They are in base contact, so they are locked in combat before the Fight Sub-phase" is incorrect.

So DeathReaper, if you can't be locked in combat during the charge move because locked in combat isn't mentioned in that section what causes a unit to be locked in combat during the movement phase or the shooting phase?

It seems to me by making the delineation that the locked rules only kick in during the fight resolution phase because that is where they happen to be mentioned would further restrict them from ever being able to kick in during any other phase, allowing units to simply move out of close combat like a vehicle, or even worse, use their shooting phase to shoot into the squad they are currently fighting (since neither is locked since it's not the combat resolution phase).

I certainly can't see any wording towards the end of the Assault sections that says units in an ongoing assault will be "locked in combat" until the following assault phase.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
So DeathReaper, if you can't be locked in combat during the charge move because locked in combat isn't mentioned in that section what causes a unit to be locked in combat during the movement phase or the shooting phase?

The fact that they have had a Fight Sub-phase, and we are told that they are now locked in combat from the Fight Sub-phase section, and are no longer eligible to move whilst locked.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Plus the Context of "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." being under the "FIGHT CLOSE COMBAT" section tells us they are not locked until they Fight a close combat.

It doesn't tell us anything of the sort. Just because a definition exists within a particular section does not mean the definition only exists in the part of the game that section describes. Nowhere does it say that they are locked only in the Fight Sub-phase, that part you are making up.

Fragile wrote:

Or accept that "They are not locked until the Fight sub-phase so you may Overwatch at any one assaulting unit."

Your making up rules to justify your position. This statement clearly violates far more RAW by saying the Initial charger suddenly locks out the rest of the charging unit by succeeding in his charge.

It is actually to illustrate that the position of "They are in base contact, so they are locked in combat before the Fight Sub-phase" is incorrect.

Putting words into quotes to make it sound like a rule doesn't change the fact that the rules do not support your position, nor is it an effective argument.

The unit moves together, the models move individually. Just like the unit fires their weapons together, but you roll for them separately. Just because we physically do something one model at a time does not change the fact that as far as the rules/game is concerned they all did that action together. The unit moves one model at a time, once the unit has moved they are locked in combat and cannot Overwatch a second charging unit.

1. Declare Charge
2. Resolve Overwatch
3. Roll Charge Range.
4. Charge Move
5. Declare Next Charge.

Captain - the rules for moving chargers specifically tells you that you are moving sequentially. Hence the restrictions on the first model and the requirements to end in coherency with a model that has already moved. The move is explicitly sequential.

The unit charges. The fact that you move them one at a time is irrelevant. You cannot break it down to the model charges then the unit can't charge anymore because a model does not charge, the unit does. Just like you can't shoot with one model then be told your unit already shot so no more shooting.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
The unit moves together, the models move individually. Just like the unit fires their weapons together, but you roll for them separately. Just because we physically do something one model at a time does not change the fact that as far as the rules/game is concerned they all did that action together. The unit moves one model at a time, once the unit has moved they are locked in combat and cannot Overwatch a second charging unit.

1. Declare Charge
2. Resolve Overwatch
3. Roll Charge Range.
4. Charge Move
5. Declare Next Charge.

The part about 'The unit moves one model at a time' is correct, but the rules make it quite clear that you move sequentially, and not all at once.

The 1-5 steps are correct, with the caveat that #2 does not have to be done by the unit being charged.

However if you are claiming that they are locked in combat before the fight sub-phase (Where they tell us that they are locked) we are going to need some actual proof using the actual rules. (That means do not ignore the context).

So suddenly context matters again? Please pick a side, it is impossible to follow your reasoning when it keeps changing like that.

Like I said, the location of a rule in a particular section is not enough context to support your claim. Or is it? See, in the past you argued it wasn't (swooping vs. grounded) but now you are arguing it is. I cannot accept your argument as valid because it is inconsistent with previous arguments and I am unable to determine if you are being disingenuous now or then. That and the context you speak of doesn't exist.