Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I started thinking about this idea while I was in a bad mood. I like to think that the anger shows in the build.

Total Roster Cost: 1840

3x Heavy Support: Monolith (200 pts)

5x Troops: Warriors (165 pts)
5 Warriors
1 Night Scythe

HQ: Destroyer Lord (190 pts)
1 Destroyer Lord + Sempiternal Weave + Mindshackle Scarabs + Tachyon Arrow

Elite: C'Tan Shard (225 pts)
+ Pyreshards + Moulder of Worlds

I could also consider dropping a monolith for a Doom Scythe, but then I would need to add another unit to not Reserve, or possibly just start one of the Warrior squads on the table.

The idea is to have lots of flyers (and late game scoring units safe in them) and to use the inherent survivability of the Monolith, C'Tan and DLord to get around that pesky, lose the game if you have no models on the table at the end of a game turn. (BRB p122)

Let me know what you think.

Edit : Updated List with Wraiths replacing C'tan - some habits are hard to break

Updated Roster Cost: 1850

3x Heavy Support: Monolith (200 pts)

5x Troops: Warriors (165 pts)
5 Warriors
1 Night Scythe

HQ: Destroyer Lord (175 pts)
1 Destroyer Lord + Mindshackle Scarabs + Tachyon Arrow

Fast Attack: Canoptek Wraiths (250 pts)
6 Canoptek Wraiths + Whip Coil x4

Why not take Wraiths instead of a C'Tan. They're stil awesomely survivable for their points being 35pt 2 wound models with 3++ saves. Plus, you can combine them with the Destroyer Lord and get a lot more use out of them than you would a C'Tan. Probably for less points too.

Additionally, I'd use those spare 10pts to give your Destroyer Lord a Warscythe.

Second on the warscythe.

WS is standard equipment on DLords.

I thought about the Wraiths. I have been running them in every list lately I agree they combine nicely with the DLord. I was just thinking about something different

 Rampage wrote:
Why not take Wraiths instead of a C'Tan. They're stil awesomely survivable for their points being 35pt 2 wound models with 3++ saves. Plus, you can combine them with the Destroyer Lord and get a lot more use out of them than you would a C'Tan. Probably for less points too.

Additionally, I'd use those spare 10pts to give your Destroyer Lord a Warscythe.

Agreed. Remember that the Warscythe is free for the DLord.

I reckon Praetorians are best when paired with a DLord now, IMHO.

Ah ok, was unaware that it was standard.

 IHateNids wrote:
I reckon Praetorians are best when paired with a DLord now, IMHO.

What's your reasoning? Wraiths are cheaper and more durable (which is what the OP is looking for).

 IHateNids wrote:
I reckon Praetorians are best when paired with a DLord now, IMHO.

Praetorians aren't terrible, but they lack of an invul and are I1 and that's why they are pushed to the back over Wraiths and Lychguard.

The Anti-TEQ shooting, consistant AP2 & reanimations

 IHateNids wrote:
The Anti-TEQ shooting, consistant AP2 & reanimations

True, you do have that quite nice S5 AP2 shot. Couple of problems with this though.

The first is the maths for shooting at Terminators, let's assume that you have 5 Praetorians shooting at 5 Terminators, without Storm Shields. So, 5 shots, of which 3.3 hit, and out of which, 2.2 wound, rounding to 2. Then, after their 5++ saves, 1 Terminators will have been killed. Because you have shot at the Terminators, you must be within 6" of them, allowing them to simply smack you in the face, you are unlikely to kill one with the following overwatch. They will then all have power weapons/fists as standard Terminators, meaning that they will cancel out all of your Praetorians saves, something that Wraiths will not have a problem with due to theirs being invulnerable. Additionally, your Rod of Covenant being a power weapon won't matter. Now you could argue that having a Destroyer Lord in that squad will make them a little bit more durable in CC, but by that point you'll have a 325pt minimum block of models jumping across the board, at the minimum Praetorian points cost of 200pts and without upgrading the D-Lord.

So, lets compare that to Wraiths, for 200pts, I am getting 5 wounds at T5 with 3+ armour saves and a 5+ 'get back up save' provided that the whole squad does not need to take them to remain living with Praetorians. For 95pts less, I could have 6 T4 wounds with 3+ invulnerable saves, and the ability to get rending in combat with +2 attacks and +1 strength compared to the Praetorians, allowing them to bring down light infantry, heavy infantry and vehicles.

Rampage wrote:...So, lets compare that to Wraiths, for 200pts, I am getting 5 wounds at T5 with 3+ armour saves and a 5+ 'get back up save' provided that the whole squad does not need to take them to remain living with Praetorians. For 95pts less, I could have 6 T4 wounds with 3+ invulnerable saves, and the ability to get rending in combat with +2 attacks and +1 strength compared to the Praetorians, allowing them to bring down light infantry, heavy infantry and vehicles.

Also Fearless, Whip Coils and the ability to ignore DDTT. I do love my wraiths


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Updated list in OP

foolishmortal wrote:

Rampage wrote:...So, lets compare that to Wraiths, for 200pts, I am getting 5 wounds at T5 with 3+ armour saves and a 5+ 'get back up save' provided that the whole squad does not need to take them to remain living with Praetorians. For 95pts less, I could have 6 T4 wounds with 3+ invulnerable saves, and the ability to get rending in combat with +2 attacks and +1 strength compared to the Praetorians, allowing them to bring down light infantry, heavy infantry and vehicles.

Also Fearless, Whip Coils and the ability to ignore DDTT. I do love my wraiths


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Updated list in OP

That comparison isn't very accurate. The TP's are either S6 and AP1 (albeit 1 attack and I 1), or Rending and entropic, both combos combined with a very respectable shooting weapon (range aside, it's monunted on Jump Infantry, and the range on the Rod's shootin in particular works amazing in conjunction with a Hammer of Wrath assault).

Also, they are both Fearless. And the TP's don't have hard counter weapons like Missiles.

For my money, if your looking for a Destroyer Lord escort, I'd take TPs over the Wraiths. The Whip Coils are nice, but ultimatly the TP unit can be bigger, providing more bodies in front of bullets, and can synergize with a Res orb upgrade on the DLord as well. Plus they shoot and assault respectably, giving you more mileage out of preferred enemy.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
ultimatly the TP unit can be bigger, providing more bodies in front of bullets, and can synergize with a Res orb upgrade on the DLord as well. Plus they shoot and assault respectably, giving you more mileage out of preferred enemy.

Actually, Wraiths provide more wounds than TP, in a maximum size squad of Wraiths you are getting 12 wounds, in a maximum size squad of Praetorians you are getting 10. You may be getting more bodies, but the number of wounds they can take is lower than Wraiths. They don't really shoot respectably, in order to do any shooting at all they have to get within 6" of an enemy unit, and even when they get to shoot at Terminators which they supposedly excel at killing the prior maths shows that they'll only kill 1 for every 5 Praetorians in a squad. Plus, they rely on that Destroyer Lord in the squad to be the close combat hitter. Not really sure how you get more mileage out of Preferred enemy, yes you get to use it in the shooting phase, but if we look at it this way, each Praetorian gets 1 shot in the shooting phase, and 1 attack in combat, so you have 2 chances to use that re-roll. Wraiths don't get any shooting attacks, but they do get 3 attacks in combat, meaning that they have 3 potential chances to use preferred enemy, using it more.

Additionally, a full squad of Wraiths is 210pts, 190pts less than a full squad of Praetorians.

On a purely all-hit, all-wound viewpoint of a charging Cron unit with no DLord, you get
Note: only calculating dished out wounds, not taken

for Wraiths
30 S6 wounds, 5 of which are AP1
25/6=4 wounds unsaved (4 1's rolled)
5/6=1.6 unsaved on SS (1.6 1s/2s rolled)
6 kills

for TPs
Assault
20 S6 wounds All AP2
10 S5 wounds no ap HoW
20/6=6 wounds unsaved by SS (6 1s/2s rolled)
10/6=2 wounds unsaved (1.5 1s Rolled)
8 kills

Ok, fair enough, but bearing in mind that the OP is looking for durability so that he isn't tabled before the rest his army comes on, I think that it is difficult to dispute that Wraiths are more durable for less points.

Additionally, you forgot that Wraiths also get HoW.

Point for point wraiths are better. sure you can get a bigger unit that will do more damage but it will cost you alot of points.

Rampage wrote:Ok, fair enough, but bearing in mind that the OP is looking for durability so that he isn't tabled before the rest his army comes on, I think that it is difficult to dispute that Wraiths are more durable for less points.

Additionally, you forgot that Wraiths also get HoW.

Agreed. I was pointing out Triarchs can do more damage to a Termie squad, that is all. I would never suggest they are more points-effecient than Wraiths.

About HoW, the Wraiths' attacks & hammer are both @ S6 so i did them as one, wheras TPs have S5 hammer and S6 attacks so I did them separate

 Kendowned wrote:
Point for point wraiths are better. sure you can get a bigger unit that will do more damage but it will cost you alot of points.

Undoubtably