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I've only gotten a few games of 6th ed in so far and I personally very much enjoy 6th ed. During a game today though, we had an issue with overwatch and CC.

Heres how the it was set up: he had 3 crisis suits close to my last remaining long fang. I had a full squad of grey hunters also within charge range on the other side of the suits.
I decided to declare my charge with the single remaining long fang hoping he would up his overwatch on that unit leaving my full squad safe from that pesky plasma fire. He saw through this of course and decided to wait until my second squad charged to overwatch on them instead.

Under the rules for assault and the new sub-phases though it states that I had to roll my charge distance after he chose to NOT shoot his overwatch on my lone long fang and upon succeeding that roll (which I did) move it into base contact with the enemy model. Here is where we became confused. I now had a model in base contact with his suits which the book calls *launching an assault*.

We could not find a specific rule stating if his suits were considering locked in combat yet and thus could not overwatch onto my second squad which was about to start its own charge subphase or not. He argued that his models werent engaged by my long fang until it progressed to the fight sub-phase and I had no idea how to argue to the contrary so we just allowed the overwatch. Now I post the questions here hoping for someone with more insight to shed some light on this problem as its sure to happen again.

Pg. 23. Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat.

Once a unit makes a successful charge move into BTB, that unit is locked in combat.

Since Charge moves are resolved 1 at a time you can lock with the long fang, then charge with the Hunters.

You mean:

Once a unit makes a successful charge and moves into BTB and the fight sub-phase has started then that unit is locked in combat.

P.23, in context, lets us know units are not locked in combat until the Fight sub-phase.

Fragile wrote:
Pg. 23. Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat.

Once a unit makes a successful charge move into BTB, that unit is locked in combat.

Since Charge moves are resolved 1 at a time you can lock with the long fang, then charge with the Hunters.

This is how we play it. As soon as a unit has charged in and has models in B2B, then both units are locked in combat.

Playing it 'the other way' just doesn't make sense, and gives yet another advantage to shooting-based armies.

Unless the first unit to charge is a long way away it's best to overwatch against the first declaration, especially if it's a charge coming from close-up.

To clarify my position:

P.21 states that "An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack..."
Following the normal rules for shooting; P.12 states that units that are "locked in close combat with the foe" cannot shoot.
You would check if a unit is locked in close combat at this point, to satisfy the rules for shooting. The definition of locked in combat is on P.23, so you need to check this when resolving overwatch, you don't wait until the fight subphase to check; that just happens to be where they decided to define it.

The above poster is wrong, and is being either willfully misleading, or has just misunderstood.

infinity here is the problem with a unit being considered locked in combat before the Fight sub-phase.
1. Tac squad declares charge on a unit of Hormagaunts 11" away (don't ask why, just roll with it).
2. Tac squad rolls 12" for charge range.
3. First model moves up and is in base contact.
4. Since there is a model in base contact with the Hormagaunts, the unit is now locked in combat.
5. Since you are only allowed to make Pile-In moves while locked in combat, the rest of the squad can not move until it is their turn in the Fight sub-phase.

If we go by Deathreapers interpretation, since the unit is not locked in combat yet, the rest of the models may move up.

Happyjew wrote:
infinity here is the problem with a unit being considered locked in combat before the Fight sub-phase.
1. Tac squad declares charge on a unit of Hormagaunts 11" away (don't ask why, just roll with it).
2. Tac squad rolls 12" for charge range.
3. First model moves up and is in base contact.
4. Since there is a model in base contact with the Hormagaunts, the unit is now locked in combat.
5. Since you are only allowed to make Pile-In moves while locked in combat, the rest of the squad can not move until it is their turn in the Fight sub-phase.

If we go by Deathreapers interpretation, since the unit is not locked in combat yet, the rest of the models may move up.

Agreed. It's RAW. Yeah it gives shooty armies another advantage. But if they're wrong in waiting and no one else charges, they have no over watch. We can't start reading rules how we want them to be.

One reading breaks the game and people don't like it. The other is RAW and works with all the other rules

Excellent post Happyjew, I hadn't thought of this part of being locked outside of the first fight phase, but I knew, reading the rules, that locking could not happen @B2B contact.

Happyjew wrote:
infinity here is the problem with a unit being considered locked in combat before the Fight sub-phase.
1. Tac squad declares charge on a unit of Hormagaunts 11" away (don't ask why, just roll with it).
2. Tac squad rolls 12" for charge range.
3. First model moves up and is in base contact.
4. Since there is a model in base contact with the Hormagaunts, the unit is now locked in combat.
5. Since you are only allowed to make Pile-In moves while locked in combat, the rest of the squad can not move until it is their turn in the Fight sub-phase.

If we go by Deathreapers interpretation, since the unit is not locked in combat yet, the rest of the models may move up.

While I can see how this has developed, however I believe it is still incorrect.

P.21; Charge Moves: wrote:
"All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move... following the same rules as in the Movement Phase, with the exception that they can be moved within 1" of enemy models"

Page 21 also tells us the conditions that must be met whilst making a Charge Move. These are highly specific and pretty damn basic.
I can't see where your point 4 is of any relevance, as you do not check if the unit you are charging is locked in combat during the Charge Move - how would you ever charge two or more squads into an enemy unit?

I know where you're coming from, but nowhere in the rules does it say that you're only allowed to make Pile In moves while locked in combat. P.23 states that models must make a Pile In move if they are not already in base contact. It then goes on to state the moves are treated as for moving charging models.

What I am trying to say is that for the purposes of Overwatch, you need to check if your unit is locked in combat when you go to resolve the out-of-sequence shooting attack, which happens before the Fight subphase. If a unit has already charged and made it to base contact, then you can't shoot as you are locked in combat, as defined on P.23.

infinityandbeyond wrote:
nowhere in the rules does it say that you're only allowed to make Pile In moves while locked in combat.

Page 23, Who Can Fight?
Units that have one or more models in base contact with the enemy are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves, and cannot otherwise move or shoot. (Bold emphasis, BRB, Underlined, mine).

After you move the first model, does the unit have 1 or more models in base contact? If yes, the unit may only make Pile In moves, and cannot otherwise move.

Ah, apologies; missed that part.

P.21 Still makes you move the rest of the unit during the Charge Move, however, and explicitly states that;

- a charging model must end its charge move in coherency and

- if possible, must move into base contact or

- it must try to move to within 2" of one of its own units models already in base contact.

(bold emphasis mine)

It doesn't say to move the first model, then check if the unit is locked in combat before moving the rest of the unit, which is what you're implying. It tells you to move all the models in a charging unit, whilst adhering to the restrictions above.

Gotta go to the pub now, but i'm sure that a few pints will give me sudden, brilliant insight into this... or not.

I have to agree with infinity on this one. It makes absolutely no sense for a charging tac squad to start there charge, stand around and wait for jimmy in front to make base contact and then follow him.

"All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move..."

That right there would lead me to believe that they all move at exactly the same time, thusly when jimmy makes base contact and is considering locking in combat, all of his pals are already right there with him.

In my original example though, I only had 1 long fang. That makes that kind of irrelevant in that situation. What I really want to know is a clear rule on whether a until can be locked in combat in the charge sub phase or not until the fight sub phase begins.

nanaki658 wrote:
they all move at exactly the same time

Page 21: Start each charge by moving the initial charger from the charging unit...After moving the first model, you can move the others in any sequence you desire, providing you abide by the following conditions:

Happyjew wrote:
infinity here is the problem with a unit being considered locked in combat before the Fight sub-phase.
1. Tac squad declares charge on a unit of Hormagaunts 11" away (don't ask why, just roll with it).
2. Tac squad rolls 12" for charge range.
3. First model moves up and is in base contact.
4. Since there is a model in base contact with the Hormagaunts, the unit is now locked in combat.
5. Since you are only allowed to make Pile-In moves while locked in combat, the rest of the squad can not move until it is their turn in the Fight sub-phase.

If we go by Deathreapers interpretation, since the unit is not locked in combat yet, the rest of the models may move up.

Again, your trying to take part of a rule and apply it both out of context and in the middle of another action. Which is not the case. The UNIT charges, it is resolved by moving the models in a specific order. By your same reasoning, only 1 member of a squad can move, because once you pick up the first guy and move him, the Unit has moved and cannot move twice in the movement phase.

Happyjew wrote:

nanaki658 wrote:
they all move at exactly the same time

Page 21: Start each charge by moving the initial charger from the charging unit...After moving the first model, you can move the others in any sequence you desire, providing you abide by the following conditions:

Yeah, it doesn't say all the models move at the same time, but until all the models in the unit have been moved, you haven't completed the Charge Move. Say you get a 12" charge off; the first model moves 12"; then what, the other models in the squad have to stay 12" behind? I don't think so.

I will agree that the rules are not written as well as they should, and that they are full of holes. However, I think the intention here is clear; otherwise you would end up with the scenario you posted earlier, which is ridiculous.

Fragile wrote:
...The UNIT charges, it is resolved by moving the models in a specific order. By your same reasoning, only 1 member of a squad can move, because once you pick up the first guy and move him, the Unit has moved and cannot move twice in the movement phase.

That is not true about the unit, as nothing states you 'cannot otherwise move' in the movement phase once you move your initial model.

We are also explicitly told "once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit." P.10

infinityandbeyond wrote:
P.21 Still makes you move the rest of the unit during the Charge Move, however, and explicitly states that;

- a charging model must end its charge move in coherency and

- if possible, must move into base contact or

- it must try to move to within 2" of one of its own units models already in base contact.

In a permissive ruleset cannot trumps must

Either

1) Once the initial charger makes base contact it is locked in combat and no other model from the unit can move, since now the unit cant move and Cant trumps Must.

Or

2) They make the charge move as normal because they are not locked in CC until the fight sub-phase.

I am inclined to say #2 is correct, as #1 kind of makes assaulting into close combat something no one would do.

infinityandbeyond wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

nanaki658 wrote:
they all move at exactly the same time

Page 21: Start each charge by moving the initial charger from the charging unit...After moving the first model, you can move the others in any sequence you desire, providing you abide by the following conditions:

Yeah, it doesn't say all the models move at the same time, but until all the models in the unit have been moved, you haven't completed the Charge Move. Say you get a 12" charge off; the first model moves 12"; then what, the other models in the squad have to stay 12" behind? I don't think so.

I will agree that the rules are not written as well as they should, and that they are full of holes. However, I think the intention here is clear; otherwise you would end up with the scenario you posted earlier, which is ridiculous.

So where are you getting permission to make a non-Pile In move once the unit is locked in combat?

You point out context a lot DR, but you ignore it here.

The Unit is taking an action.

..The charging unit now moves into close combat.....
..Charging units must attempt to engage as many opposing....
....All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move.........they can be moved within l" of enemy models. Note this is very specific permission to move into BTB during a charge move.

You complete the charge move with the UNIT. Then you end in BTB and are locked in combat by definition.

I am not ignoring the context.

The unit is indeed taking an action, and you have to complete that action before moving onto the next assaulting unit.

However, if you are locked in CC as soon as you are in Base Contact, then once you move the initial charger into base contact we are told that units locked in CC cannot move except for pile in moves.

Or you are locked in combat starting with the fight sub-phase, as the rules in the fight sub-phase dictate, and you do not break any rules with the assaulting unit.

one interpretation breaks rules, one does not.

I am inclined to go with [2) They make the charge move as normal because they are not locked in CC until the fight sub-phase.] because it does not break any rules.

The only way it breaks is if you apply the rules out of context. You do not interrupt a charge move in mid action. Your trying to find a way to break pure RAW using something out of context.

Fragile wrote:
The only way it breaks is if you apply the rules out of context. You do not interrupt a charge move in mid action. Your trying to find a way to break pure RAW using something out of context.

1) Why do you not interrupt a charge move in mid action? The rules about being locked in combat, like you are trying to apply then would definitely come into play here.

2) Your side is asserting that you are locked in combat before the fight sub-phase. So why are we not applying all rules that come with being locked in combat?

Why do the 'cannot move when locked in combat' rules come into play after the unit makes its full move, assault move says must, and the locked rules say cannot.

in a permissive ruleset cannot trumps must.

This is very interesting, I'm finding both sides bringing very good arguments to this. Is there any way to bring this to GW's attention? Seems like a good topic for a FAQ.

Happyjew wrote:
So where are you getting permission to make a non-Pile In move once the unit is locked in combat?

P.21

All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move...

... following the same rules as in the Movement phase...

P.10 - Movement

Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit.

What I don't really get is why you guys think it's alright to move one model in a charge, then check to see if both units are locked in combat (which they would be, I agree)? Where do you get permission to break the following conditions of moving charging models:

A charging model must end its charge move in unit coherency

If possible, a charging model must move into base contact with an enemy model within reach....

... a charging model... must try to move within 2"...

Surely that's breaking the game still? Or is this just "cannot trumps must"?

What you're suggesting happens is:

- Pick a unit and declare charge
- Overwatch
- Roll charge distance
- Move initial charger
- Check if units are locked in combat
- Profit ???

Pub didn't help, btw.

If you take the Can't vs Trump argument, it basically comes down to a basic rule of "locked in combat" that states you can only pile in etc vs a very specific rule that allows you to move into BTB with enemies. Its specific enough it takes half a page to say how its done.

But again, that is mostly irrelevant since you do not interrupt the Unit taking its charge action.

infinityandbeyond wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
So where are you getting permission to make a non-Pile In move once the unit is locked in combat?

P.21

All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move...

... following the same rules as in the Movement phase...

P.10 - Movement

Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit.

That does not override the cannot move while locked in combat rules.

infinityandbeyond wrote:
What I don't really get is why you guys think it's alright to move one model in a charge, then check to see if both units are locked in combat (which they would be, I agree)? Where do you get permission to break the following conditions of moving charging models

Basically the cannot trumps must is why.

and from what the one side is asserting you check for locked in CC after the unit moves, but before you declare additional charges.

So either:
1) You check locked in combat all the time.
Or
2) You follow the context of the Fight sub-phase rules, as that is when it mentions being locked in combat

 DeathReaper wrote:

infinityandbeyond wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
So where are you getting permission to make a non-Pile In move once the unit is locked in combat?

P.21

All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move...

... following the same rules as in the Movement phase...

P.10 - Movement

Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit.

That does not override the cannot move while locked in combat rules.

infinityandbeyond wrote:
What I don't really get is why you guys think it's alright to move one model in a charge, then check to see if both units are locked in combat (which they would be, I agree)? Where do you get permission to break the following conditions of moving charging models

Basically the cannot trumps must is why.

and from what the one side is asserting you check for locked in CC after the unit moves, but before you declare additional charges.

So either:
1) You check locked in combat all the time.
Or
2) You follow the context of the Fight sub-phase rules, as that is when it mentions being locked in combat

1. You check for restrictions at any time a Unit would take an action has restrictions. In this case, you check for Locked in combat at the Declare Charge phase. You also check for (Unit Ran, Fired Rapid Fire weapons, Gone to Ground etc. If you are able to meet all those restrictions you are then able to take your action. You then resolve that action completely.

The enemy then resolves Overwatch. They check for restrictions to Overwatch. ( Are they locked in combat or already fired Overwatch this turn) If No, then fire overwatch (if desired)

You then have to roll charge range and check for another restriction. Is the roll high enough to make the closest unit into BTB? If yes, you can continue.

You then make the Charge Move. Moving has restrictions (cannot go through impassable, etc... or within 1" of enemy, ((You can even put all the same restrictions as #1 here as well, Note again your not locked in combat before you take your action). However the Charge move gives you permission to BTB the enemy, in fact it orders you to do so with as many of your models as you can. You then resolve the charge move following all the restrictions laid out on pg 21. Now you are in BTB with an enemy. Any further checks for restrictions would trigger "Locked"

The second unit then charges the same unit. It makes all the same restrictions checks as the first unit in the Declare Charge. The Enemy then Resolves Overwatch. It checks if it fired Overwatch already this turn and is it locked in combat. The Definition of Locked in Combat is ((Units with one or more models in BTB with Enemies are locked in combat)). In this case, the first charging unit is in BTB. Therefore RAW, that unit is now locked in combat, and may not resolve Overwatch.

The second unit then continues with the rest of the charge sequence.



2. There is no context other than that is where GW defined Locked in combat. In the context of the section you are using, the Unit is checking for whether the 'locked unit" is engaged and able to strike blows in melee combat. It does not say or imply. "The unit now becomes locked in combat." The unit IS in combat or you would not even be able to fight.

Why are you arbitrarally only checking at the start of the action?

Why are you not checking if locked at other times?

What rules do you have that say only check at the start of an action?

Related scenario. I have a unit with Jetpacks locked in combat. Combat is resolved with my unit winning. I then decide to use their thrust move. Since they are not locked in combat, it should be ok, right?

Or how about we check at the start of each phase/sub-phase? Then we don't have all these silly arguments.

Happyjew wrote:
Related scenario. I have a unit with Jetpacks locked in combat. Combat is resolved with my unit winning. I then decide to use their thrust move. Since they are not locked in combat, it should be ok, right?

Or how about we check at the start of each phase/sub-phase? Then we don't have all these silly arguments.

Yes, I think the jet pack issue got brought up in another thread.

"Or how about we.." sounds like a good start to a house rule. Many things in this game could be clarified or improved on. Many things in this forum we all argue but would not play it that way. These things are what FAQ's are for.