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Newly coming back to 40k with my friends and a lot has changed now in 6th... I use to know what set apart each army more or less in 5th as well as the top army lists. Now I'm a bit confused and would like a bit of help deciding what army to pick up

I've narrowed my choices to codex sm or sw. Could anyone help me with understanding which army would be the most competitive and well rounded to take? I'm looking to join a league soon with my friends to learn the rules and get back into the game. Also looking to play in tournaments a lot more than we did in the past.

Any suggestions/info welcomed.

Arguably, from the 3 armies you posted, SW are the best, followed by BA and, after a long gap, SM.

C:SM are your basic marines, BA are that with better options (Less scatter for DSing Jump pack units, Assault Marines as trooops, Feel no Pain) and SW are beefed-up marines with, again, better choices (Long Fangs being cheaper and having more utility, Terminator characters in "Tactical" squads, more special weapons).

This is not exactly true. While I agree that SW are the gold standard for marine armies (basically they have no weaknesses other than model count), BA have taken substiantal hits in 6th edition:

-The reduced effectiveness of Furious Charge. FC does not work during multiple charges and does not grant an initiative bonus.

-Nerf of power weapons means that assault squads lose initative advantage in order to kill terminators.

-Overwatch, random charge length, and no assault after disembarking all hamper the BA. Other changes like reduction in cover and FNP work against them as well.

On the other hand C:SM have benefited from nearly every rule change.

-Combat Tactics combined with ATSKNF means a marine squad can choose to fail a Morale check in their opponents assault phase, fall back, consolidate 3", Move, Shoot, and assualt normally in their turn.

-Changes to rapid fire mean they can move and still fire out to 24" inches. Increase viability of Troop units.



I think the only place where BA got better than C:SM is in psychic powers due to the fact BA gets Divination. But Divination favors heavy shooty armies and that is certianly not the BA strength.

SW are the best choice by far.

SW, GK and IG are the best armies at the moment. This has little to do with 6th edition and more to do with them having some really undercosted units that are good.

SW: Grey Hunters and Long Fangs is the bread and butter. They are way to good for what they do. While not having anti-air at the moment this will probably change. JotWW should never have been printed as it is now.

GK: Purefiers are very cheap along with all of theyr units being crazy good. The S8 autocannon dreadnought was also insane (I do not know if this is true.)

IG: The chimera is to cheap along with the fact that you can shoot 5 special weapons out of it. Veteran squads are to damn cheap as you will achieve critical mass with firepower on cheap guns with veterans and chimeras. One of the airplanes is also very cheap and good. The hydra used to be the motherload on unbalanced 75 points but this has been nerfed a bitt against some armies.

BA are good. They some very interesting options, death company setting the standar. Blood tallons used to be insane.

I would advice against a full jump pack all assault army after furius charge lost one point of inisiative. The problem ocurs when you meet another dedicated CC army (space wolces, orks, tyranids, some dark eldar armies, daemons.)

Mind you none of the 3 Sm armies are bad. If you are going regular SM consider the salamander commander if you want the cheese. Vulkan is to damn unbalanced as the points of the games go up.

I would advice from taking only the most unbalanced units. The game gets booring fast. Instead I would sugest you bring cool units and cool lists. You will fast find yourself being more valued as an oponent as they do not just meet the same old again and again.

Thanks you guys. I did use to play BA and the post by Glock really was secretly what I was hoping to hear lol I like that C:SM actually may be better than BA this time around because I haven't played them yet and being able to field 6x Rifledreads (Dreads are my favorite model and what got me into 40k) is just awesome.

Between SW and C:SM what do you think would be the most competitive to choose? And after that what are the "key units" (under costed and just awesome) to take in that Codex? SW having a hard time dealing with flyers sounds like a painful ordeal since I will be playing in tournaments I think...maybe?

SW are definitely more competitive than SM. As regards anti-flyers, if I am not mistaken, they both are in the same boat now, but You can always ally with IG to get Hydra and/or Vendetta.

syypher wrote:
Thanks you guys. I did use to play BA and the post by Glock really was secretly what I was hoping to hear lol I like that C:SM actually may be better than BA this time around because I haven't played them yet and being able to field 6x Rifledreads (Dreads are my favorite model and what got me into 40k) is just awesome.

Between SW and C:SM what do you think would be the most competitive to choose? And after that what are the "key units" (under costed and just awesome) to take in that Codex? SW having a hard time dealing with flyers sounds like a painful ordeal since I will be playing in tournaments I think...maybe?

With space wolves, your heavy hitters are still Long fangs and Thunderwolf Cavalry. Now a lord with a 2+/3++ can take ALL the hits from small arms fire on the way into battle, and when he gets low on wounds start deflecting the heavier shots back onto his brethren with Look out, Sir! Razorback spam is cheap and can work unless your opponent has any reliable strength 7 shooting (and higher).

Codex: S.M. is a little different, the best lists i've seen with that book use Vulkan and drop pod sternguard to put a hurt on the enemy with a focused alpha strike, then using tactical squads and snipers to hold back objectives and plink shots from across the table. Riflemen dreadnoughts would fit well with that type of list as well, again any reliable s7 shooting will mince transport vehicles through weight of fire in 6th edition. Once the enemy is on foot your twin-linked flamers can go ape-squeeze all over them.

Once Razorback spam is brought into the mix, isn't it just better to go GK? Since they bring higher S shooting and better shooting inside as well? What does RB spam that SW bring do better than GK?

Both are in the same boat as for AA? C:SM can bring 6x rifle dreads which I would probably do if I were to choose them in the end. But apart from that I wouldn't know what else C:SM key units are worth taking. Seems troops choices are limited and that I'd need to take allies for that. Unless tactical alone are fine but from my past exp in 5th they weren't all that and troops being even more important now...

syypher wrote:
Thanks you guys. I did use to play BA and the post by Glock really was secretly what I was hoping to hear lol I like that C:SM actually may be better than BA this time around because I haven't played them yet and being able to field 6x Rifledreads (Dreads are my favorite model and what got me into 40k) is just awesome.

Between SW and C:SM what do you think would be the most competitive to choose? And after that what are the "key units" (under costed and just awesome) to take in that Codex? SW having a hard time dealing with flyers sounds like a painful ordeal since I will be playing in tournaments I think...maybe?

As far as tournaments are concerned, you might expect some Necron flyer spam as exemplifed by a battle between Necrons vs. SW. ''SW having a hard time dealing with flyers'' is an understatement, see http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/469911.page

syypher wrote:
Once Razorback spam is brought into the mix, isn't it just better to go GK? Since they bring higher S shooting and better shooting inside as well? What does RB spam that SW bring do better than GK?

Basically Grey Hunters are your stock-standard marines, plus a CCW, and only 15 points each. Grey Knight Strike Squads, on the other hand, only have a storm bolter/force weapon, so just 1 base attack and are 20 points each.

The difference levels out to Space Wolf razorspam has cheaper units filling each razorback, which get more attacks in CC if the enemy gets close and they need to duke it out (plus counter-attack), and GK's strengths lie more in the infantry shooting with psycannons and storm bolters with psybolt than relying on razorbacks.

Both can do the razor spam list but I personally believe that SW going that route will come out on top thanks to the troops inside being cheaper with more attacks.

I think SM offer you more choices to properly fill out a FOC. Where as the BA and the SW have fewer viable choices, thuse the need to spam the options that actually work for you. I think it really depends on your play style and which army best suits your style of tactics. SW can be more tournament friendly, but that is because of the spammed list. All three armies can be fun and work, but you have to have a different mentality to be successfull with each. Just my two cents.....

Glocknall wrote:
This is not exactly true. While I agree that SW are the gold standard for marine armies (basically they have no weaknesses other than model count), BA have taken substiantal hits in 6th edition:

SW have little to no long range shooting outside of heavy support and razorbacks. And now in 6th people are saying vehicles are dead. SW can't afford to fight battles of attrition. They have to get in close which opens them up to lots of enemy shooting as well, thus the low model count actually becomes even more problematic.

SW: Grey Hunters and Long Fangs is the bread and butter. They are way to good for what they do. While not having anti-air at the moment this will probably change. JotWW should never have been printed as it is now.

Have you read any of the powers in the BRB? JOTWW is no longer the top dog of breaks all the rules. It has always been a very situational power depending on who you face, and now anything can stop it on a 6+. Its time to get off the JOTWW hate wagon, there are now worse things out there to worry about.

Don't get me wrong, SW is the only marine army I've ever considered playing, but C:SM can be competitive as long as you focus on what you want. And I personally feel that BA can be more cheesy than SW. There is just so much in your face cheese that it can bring.

Well, SW Razorback units are cheaper than the GK variant. But the GK version has also some ups, the cheap Psyback and storm bolters + force weapons all the way. Moreover, GKSS have warp quake which is quite useful against the surge of Daemons coming out of the warp (these days often seen as a flying circus).

I'm leaning towards C:SM now after looking through the different books and SW at a very close second...

However, one of the things holding me back from C:SM is that like you guys said they have a very nice codex with good choices in all the FOC slots. It's hard to decide what is really good and what to "focus on" from a competitive stand point...and guidance?

Leaning towards C:SM is a good decision.
What's good are among others:
Librarian w/ terminator armor, stormshield, nullzone,
Hammernators,
Termies with cyclones,
Tactical Marines in Rhinos- still a staple,
Tornado Landspeeders,
Stormtalon,
Thundercannon.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Leaning towards C:SM is a good decision.
What's good are among others:
Librarian w/ terminator armor, stormshield, nullzone,
Hammernators,
Termies with cyclones,
Tactical Marines in Rhinos- still a staple,
Tornado Landspeeders,
Stormtalon,
Thundercannon.

Hmm..thanks for that!

1) Questions if you don't mind on that list...can you explain why Tornado Landspeeders are better than just regular ones? Why would you take the Tornado variant instead...? doesn't seem that big of a difference...(then again I'm real new to this so I could just be missing something obvious)

2) How is the Stormtalon good? I've heard a lot of flak about how its not good. Enlighten me please because I'd LOVE to play it. It's my second favorite model

3) Also the Thundercannon...why is that good? What changed that makes it good now? I don't remember seeing any lists with it before..

4) How are Tacticals generally loaded out with wargear? Assault Cannon RB + ML + Flamer combat squaded?

Thanks for your help man!

Well The reason why the stormtalon is good right now is because the only thing that can hard counter it is another flyer or an emplaced flakk gun

I actually drop one of my HQs and a term squad to take 2 of them.

Like all models in your army they need to have a role, if you already have the role filled then dont take them, i take them because i use them to pepper the enemy and hit them while they are down.

IMO all the army are good one is not better then the other they all have their strengths and weaknesses. when you go about building your army just think about it logically and dont try and make an army that does it all, either stick with shooty or CC which if

you want a CC army, again IMO, go with SW they are basically vikings in space, or if you want to hit your enemy fast and disorganize them go with BA. Or if you want a shooty army go with C:SM, the reason i like the C:SM for shooty over the SW is for the storm talon they are the only codex that gets them

Torando speeders have versatility - you can use the 2xKrak missile to pop light armour or use 2x Small Blast Frag to drop hordes.

Stormtalon is a decent AA choice and a decent anti-horde choice / light armour popper. It's more expensive than the Land Speeder, but brings some extra stuff to the table.

Thunderfire cannon used to suck because any glance killed it. Now it is a T7 W2 SV 3+ model, it doesn't die as easily as it used to. Additionally, blasts hit with full strength vs vehicles now.

Tactical loadout depends on what role they perform. I ran pretty much every combination - Plasma/Plasma, Melta/Multi Melta, Flamer/ML , Melta/ ML. It depends what you want from them. I usually run my Sergeant with a power weapon, too.

All that said, I'd not start C:SM if I knew what I know now. Glocknall said that the BA have lsot in the change to 6th. C:SM had nothing to lose in the change, they were not a top tier codex anyway.

For example, BA also can regroup anytime using ATSKNF and their Tacticals (not that they use it) also benefit from changes to Rapid Fire.

The gap between C:SM and BA is now closer than it was in the past, but I'd still choose SW in your case - you want a competitive, strong and versatile list. Your only real problem is lack of AA which can be mitigated by Allies.

All that said, I'd really wait for the new Dark Angels codex that's due this year. It will probably be the best out of Marine codici due to the unavoidable Power Creep.

Oh the Thundercannon is the most ultimate broken item in the whole codex. Apart of being a pain in the a... to assemble, the reason why You won't seen it on the table is because it usually ends with the player being dragged out to the street and kicked in his head and other part of his body badly.

And btw, those frag/krak speeders are Typhoons, not Tornados, and SW have access to them as well.

Anything C:SM can do, C:SW can do better. Well, except for hammernators, which are damn expensive, but we can put a cyclone missile launcher on top of TH/SS Wolf Guard

CainTheHunter wrote:

Anything C:SM can do, C:SW can do better. Well, except for hammernators, which are damn expensive, but we can put a cyclone missile launcher on top of TH/SS Wolf Guard

You mean except hammernators AND bikes and attack bike squadrons and jump troops and fliers (and thus AA) and the TFC and heavy weapons outside of LF-squads and assault dreadnoughts and cheap scoring scouts with an awesome cover save and point efficient UCMs? If you're looking for a Dex which does everything better than Vanillas look at Blood Angels: They got 90% of the Vanilla units (pretty much anything except Thunderfire, Stormtalon [they get Stormravens for that] and Vulkan) and a lot of awesome stuff on top of it (Jumpers as Troops, fast vehicles, Mephiston, Sang. Priests, Death Company...)

Don't have a SW codex but is the reason you guys are saying SW > C:SM because their stuff is cheaper? Or do they have better units? Any details about why they would be better over C:SM would be helpful please.

SW just cheat, that's the long and short of it.

They are very good shooting, assault and have excellent special rules and equipment,

-They have the best troops choice in the game IMO: Grey Hunters

-They can assign their Sgt's (Wolf Guard) seperately to their units, and equip them properly for each situation.

-Excellent psychic defense and powers(runic weapons, Jaws of the WW)

-Best Devastator class unit (Long Fangs)

Im sure the SW players could elaborate better on their strengths, but their a top 3 army atm.

Their one weakness is flyer/anti-flyer. However they can battle brother ally with IG so that issue can easily and cheaply be fixed.

If you are leaning towards C:SM then I might ad that forge world gives them lots of toys. Perfect for the colecter and ratavist in you.

SW have second best troops choice in the game (the first IMO is Eldar Guardian bikers, but they and GH have different role) and second best antipsychic defense (the first being Eldar Runes of Warding,... damn Xenos again forgot about my small Eldar army). The SW don't cheat, they just have a very balanced and internally synergized codex at the moment. SW was my first army ~ 10 years ago when I picked the Codex: Eye of Terror with the 13th company list, so when the new dex came out I did not join "that new shiny army" just because of its codex creep. I am in no way a SW fanboy (well, I sort of am, since I have over 4000 points of them), but I hope I am at least a little bit impartial in this regard.

And another point, which has been addressed in Bolter in Chainsword some time ago with regard to new indecisive SW initiates - if they need reason why to play SW instead of BA or SM, they should probably play BA/SM instead.

The SW don't cheat, they just have a very balanced and internally synergized codex at the moment.

This is the exact opposite of what the SW codex is.

[quote=

And another point, which has been addressed in Bolter in Chainsword some time ago with regard to new indecisive SW initiates - if they need reason why to play SW instead of BA or SM, they should probably play BA/SM instead.

Counterattack gives the SW a great option to sit back instead of charge. In 6th ed, you can fire and instead of charging, sit back receive the charge after your snapfire and still get your bonus attacks.

SM using chapter tactics, can run away, and fire again.

Grey hunters get two special weapons - the second for free. Taking two plasma rifles, you get the best of both worlds - range out to 24" and can affect anything.

Cheap terminators - A Wolf Guard with termie armor and a wolf claw come in a tad cheaper than standard marines. However they will lose to other terminators. (now AP 3...).

Rune priests have better spells than librarians to directly affect the battle.

Long fangs are cheaper and get 1 extra heavy weapon than a devastator squad.

All that said, C:SM gives you more options to outfit your army - inclluding access to Storm Talons. If you go with C:SM get ready to buy multiple options as you learn what works for you.

SW Grey Hunters are very flexible, they're good at both shooting and assault with the right upgrades, whilst remaining fairly cheap. Rune Priests are basically Librarians, but with better psychic defence and better Codex powers (should you choose to not use BRB power) for the same cost (albiet, when their Codex was written it wasn't such a huge advantage as it is now). Long Fangs are very cheap and spam-able when you give them missile launchers, and can put out a ton of firepower. Other popular Space Wolves units are Thunderwolf Cavalry, which are brutal on the assault.

BA are more of an assault specialist army, they can do shooting but it's not their specialty. They're still good, but 6th Edition has nerfed them in a number of ways.

Outside of the awesome Assault Terminators, Vanilla SM are a very shooting-oriented army, and the 6th ed changes have boosted this focus for them.

Most of what has been said has been good. I just want to throw my 2 cents in.

Since 6th has hit I have been playing almost exclusively with my SM. It seems that people are still steering toward hammernators. No doubt that are good but I have been playing without them. Lately my list has been a Pedro list with 2 sternguard squads, 2 tactical squads, 2 vindicators, a dakka predator, 2 stormtalons, and an aegis defense line w/ quad gun.

This army has faired very well as it can shoot buckets of dice. The changes to rapid fire have made sternguard go from good to amazing (damn shame SM can't take divination cause then Sternguard would be flat out stupid!). The list has lots of scoring and believe it or not its no slouch in assault! Pedro will give all units within 12" an extra attack. Only downside to him is that you don't get combat tactics so taking fists is almost a must because you will stick around in combat.

I have found not playing with my assault terminators is making me a better player. Because I have no hammer unit I have to play tactically and lure in big mean nasties into my sternguard without getting them killed.

Lol you guys are making me regret my choice of c:sm Hahah

They do have access to a lot of really good options in all of their slots. They also seem very capable of handling any situation albeit with a more challenging play style.