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I have a box of Lychguard/Praetorians to build and I'm not sure which direction to go.
I already have some Lychguard; magnetizing would allow me to run a unit of 8 with either weapon or 2 5-man units with different weapons.
I'm also very interested in running Praetorians with a Destroyer Lord, but I have 12 wraiths that I can do that with as well.

In massive games i recommend disperison shields, otherwise warscythes are good unless you're against a terminator heavy army in which RoC is better. But generally 5x warscythes appeals to me greatly with the stats they got given on the FAQ

I don't think this poll is going to serve you very well without context.

Of all those choices, the best option is easily the TPs with Rods of the Covenant, but only if you include a D.Lord w/ Warscythe, to give them PE.

So really, what is your goal for this unit?

Good point, Azazel.

There are really two roles that I'm thinking about right now.

The first is to be a deep board threat coming out of a Nightscythe with Anrakyr on turn 2/3.

The second role is as a counter-charge unit attached to a Destroyer Lord. But as I said, Wraiths do well with that.

 azazel the cat wrote:
I don't think this poll is going to serve you very well without context.

Of all those choices, the best option is easily the TPs with Rods of the Covenant, but only if you include a D.Lord w/ Warscythe, to give them PE.

So really, what is your goal for this unit?

This is my view as well. A Decked out Dlord with Praetorians and RoC is a very good unit.

Lychguard really are not good, sadly. The nerf to power weapons pretty much killed the Sword and Board ones, and the Warscythe Lychguard are just too fragile. Any unit you'd want to send these guys up against, they'd likely get beat down. They can't kill Terminators, and Most elites will swing before them. The WS4 and being slow doesn't help either.

I've played quite a few games with the Dlord and TP's though. Thanks to the PE granted to their shooting, they can knock down most units to half strength, or kill them outright. They are also Fearless, so you won't ever get swept, and will always get a chance to make your 4+ RP with a Dlords Orb. The unit is terrible without the Dlord though, he really force multiplies it.

Lychguard are in a strange place right now. In a terminator heavy meta (with a DA codex around the corner this is likely as they already make great allies for any army that can have them) they would shine as they have access to one of the few ap 2 or less melee weapons without the unwieldly rule. This means in that particular meta they are going first in combat. S7 ap 1 with 2 attacks base is nothing to sneeze at. The T5 body also helps slightly with all the power axes you'll see, though an invunerable save is better. Any other army with power swords will ruin their day though.

So to review in a termy heavy meta with all the unwieldy weapons floating about Lychguard are going to strike first and strike harder than TPs will. Though the LG will likely get shot to pieces before they get to cc.

TP also suffer with the same problem but they trade the ability to take a nightscythe for being jump infantry and one cc attack for a short range shooting attack. The shooting attack is problematic as a smart opponent will force you to trade the cc benefits of being jump infantry, HoW and the charge reroll, by making you use your jump move to get into shooting range. And at that point TPs are worse than LG as they essentially only get to use one attack before they get hit back. They do move up the field faster though. They also get to stay in combat if they whiff due to fearless guaranteed.

Both units benefit from characters though the LG have the option to take the vanilla lord to keep points down. Two vanilla lords are 20 pts cheaper that a destroyer lord with only one orb and weaves. LG can take the DL as well and put him in a NS.

The LG in a NS is probably the most reliable option albeit 100 pts more expensive. They only have to suffer one round of shooting and can be dropped 36" - B + 6" move from your board edge where B is the diameter of the NS's base.

Wraiths are still better than both in my opinion.

I think TPs w/ D.Lord and Rods are what you're probably looking for.

The D.Lord granting PE to them shooting Str 5 AP 2 weapons, and then following up with Str 5 AP 2 CC attacks is hard to understate, particularly in a Terminator-heavy meta.

10 TPs will deliver 6.7 hits via shooting, which will deal 4.5 wounds with no armour saves, resulting in 3 wounds after the Termies' 5++

Anything that isn't unwieldly will only hurt the TPs on a 5+, and then they'll get a 3+ armour save, resulting in only a 5% chance of each hit inflicting a wound, assuming no power weapons are used. Power weapons will change that to a 34% chance to wound per attack from the Termies.

Assuming the terminators drop 3 of the 10 TPs in the assault, that leaves the TPs with 14 attacks on the charge, which will mean 7 hits, 4.7 wounds with no armour saves, resulting in 3 more wounds after the Termies' 5++.

Then the Termies with unwieldly will swing.

And keep in mind, these numbers are crunched without factoring in PE -which applies to shooting and CC- or the D.Lord w/ Warscythe.

In general, you should be able to deliver about 10-12 unsaved wounds to a unit of Termies with a proper shoot-assault, even without the HoW attack.

It's 4 unsaved wounds on the shooting attack with PE. And storm shields cut that in half.

The difference between TP and LG in the same scenario in azazel's post is that the LG will wipe the termies before they can strike. The TP group will suffer 4-5 unsaved ap 2 wounds.

LC termies would kill 4 TPs or 7 LG if the sergeant challenges the dlord, preventing a wipe.

The lychguard if delivered by nightscythe however wouldnt have to suffer all the shooting the TPs would take.

You'll have to explain how you arrived at those conclusions. Your math appears to be off, even in your first line.

Azazel, keep in mind that the RoC is a Power Axe, so it strikes at I1, with S6.

So to review in a termy heavy meta with all the unwieldy weapons floating about Lychguard are going to strike first and strike harder than TPs will. Though the LG will likely get shot to pieces before they get to cc.

The Lychguard only strike harder on things T5 and Above, since Praetorians strike at S6. I tend to find very few things above T4 that I would send either unit at.

TP also suffer with the same problem but they trade the ability to take a nightscythe for being jump infantry and one cc attack for a short range shooting attack. The shooting attack is problematic as a smart opponent will force you to trade the cc benefits of being jump infantry, HoW and the charge reroll, by making you use your jump move to get into shooting range. And at that point TPs are worse than LG as they essentially only get to use one attack before they get hit back. They do move up the field faster though. They also get to stay in combat if they whiff due to fearless guaranteed.

Yes, but if you factor in a Lord+Orb/Weave/MSS/WS+ A Nightscythe, and then a Unit of Lychguard, it doesn't become very point efficient. You may be able to hit one unit, but then you're forced to footslog for the rest of the battle, since you can't rembark into the NS. TP have the advantage of being very mobile the entire game.

Both units benefit from characters though the LG have the option to take the vanilla lord to keep points down. Two vanilla lords are 20 pts cheaper that a destroyer lord with only one orb and weaves. LG can take the DL as well and put him in a NS.

Throwing the Dlord in a non jump unit, is wasting his mobility. Plus, are you really keeping points down? You have to take an Overlord, to get a Vanilla lord, and in reality, if you're throwing a Lord into the Unit, you're going to gear them out with at least a WS/Weave/MSS/Orb. While the Vanilla lord himself, is cheaper than a Dlord, you still have to pay the Overlord Tax. If you're taking two Lords, that's two Overlords. While that may be apart of your list, it's still something to consider.

The LG in a NS is probably the most reliable option albeit 100 pts more expensive. They only have to suffer one round of shooting and can be dropped 36" - B + 6" move from your board edge where B is the diameter of the NS's base.

As I allued to earlier, if you're taking a unit of Lychguard, let's say with a Regular Lord with WS/Weave/MSS/Orb+NS You're looking at 400 points. For what? A unit that will probably wipe out the first unit it comes in contact with, but then is forced to footslog the rest of the game. The earliest you can get into CC with a charge of your own, is also T3. You would also likely be reduced in force quite a bit thanks to shooting, for that one turn you're sitting in enemy lines. This just ends up being a really expensive waste of points, IMO.

Wraiths are still better than both in my opinion.

Yes, they are, But the OP got a box of Lychguard/TPs, not Wraiths.

Well, both units are overpriced for what they can achieve.
Therefore, I'd make five Crypteks out of them.

Oh, good point about the Power Axe bit. I forgot about that.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, both units are overpriced for what they can achieve.
Therefore, I'd make five Crypteks out of them.

I'm a fan of this solution. It's really tough to go wrong here.

Of course I'm operating under the assumption that these options are worth their points.

TPs definitely have the mobility advatange and almost always start on the board, but they have to contend with the whim of your opponent. Since they start on the board they have to go for targets of opportunity which usually boils down to whatever is closest to them, if they dont want to be shot up. It's much more likely that the TPs will get tarpitted.

The Nightscythe option delivers it's payload whereever is most advantageous to you and your opponent cant do much to stop it. Yes you have to contend with the reserve rules and that limits the number of units you can destroy but chances are you will wipe out a lynchpin unit likely winning you the game.

The comment I made about LG hitting harder had more to do with their number of attacks. As to the point costs a lord with orb scythe and weave and a Nightscythe is only 20 points more than a dlord with the same options. Also while the dlords mobility lets it play nice with wraiths and TPs the real reason you're taking it is to spead around PE.

The overlord tax is not much of an argument as the option to take a royal court out weighs the option to take a dlord. The dlord will always be a secondary HQ for all builds that arent straight up wraithwing.

Does anyone use the Praetorians with Particle Casters and Voidblades? I have a unit of ten I was using a lot in 5th as powerful anti-vehicle, but haven't tried them out in 6th yet.

 azazel the cat wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Well, both units are overpriced for what they can achieve.
Therefore, I'd make five Crypteks out of them.

I'm a fan of this solution. It's really tough to go wrong here.

Since they share the warrior save, I make my crypteks out of warriors, so this is somewhat less than helpful. Besides, since I started running my Destroyer Lord as my only HQ I've won a lot more games. It's too easy to spend points on Royal Courts when you should be spending those points on more guns.

I do already have a dozen wraiths made, and I'm not feeling that I need more.

Anpu-adom wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Well, both units are overpriced for what they can achieve.
Therefore, I'd make five Crypteks out of them.

I'm a fan of this solution. It's really tough to go wrong here.

Since they share the warrior save, I make my crypteks out of warriors, so this is somewhat less than helpful. Besides, since I started running my Destroyer Lord as my only HQ I've won a lot more games. It's too easy to spend points on Royal Courts when you should be spending those points on more guns.

I do already have a dozen wraiths made, and I'm not feeling that I need more.

Me too. I used Warrior bodies & legs with TP arms, heads & loincloths.

Lychguards are almost always better regardless of equipment (though be prepared to argue with your opponent as to whether shielded Lychguards have axes or not), Praetorians may be able to go around faster but they are likely to fail to impress once they get stuck in. Lychguards however tend to mash anything they get the charge on. Additionally, Warscythe lychguards and maybe shield ones (again, be prepared to spend hours arguing) can deal with TEQs, Praetorians however, cannot, not even with rending (on a charge, assuming +3 to hit, will get maybe three rending hits on average). That being said, I haven't run much of the numbers on the hammer of wrath special rule, so that may skew things towards the triarchs.

Grey Hunters vs Shield Lychguard

Shield Lychguard vs Grey Hunters

Considering that the Hyperphase Sword is an AP3 S:User weapon, I see Lychguard as being unbelievably good MEQ killers. I picked SW troops because for me, they're the meanest marines. If I did it right, I make it one lost sword n' board lych, nine dead GH - if you get the charge.

Praetorians vs Grey Hunters

Praetorians will probably end up the same if you get HoW attacks in too but you will have to take any powerfists striking with you at I1. They have the advantage of mobility, making it easier to pick your fights but are more vulnerable to shooting.

I'm planning on 5 Sword n' Board Lych with a res lord, should be most profitable and as long as I remember to go troop hunting with them, they'll make their points back

 Kain wrote:
Lychguards are almost always better regardless of equipment (though be prepared to argue with your opponent as to whether shielded Lychguards have axes or not), Praetorians may be able to go around faster but they are likely to fail to impress once they get stuck in. Lychguards however tend to mash anything they get the charge on. Additionally, Warscythe lychguards and maybe shield ones (again, be prepared to spend hours arguing) can deal with TEQs, Praetorians however, cannot, not even with rending (on a charge, assuming +3 to hit, will get maybe three rending hits on average). That being said, I haven't run much of the numbers on the hammer of wrath special rule, so that may skew things towards the triarchs.

Hyperphase swords are AP3, it's in the digital codex, so there is no debate anymore.

Also, a normal squad of WS Lychguard will get destroyed, by a normal squad of TH/SS terminators. If you manage to get the charge, you'll maybe down 2. A Lord/Overlord can help shift this with MSS and his extra attakcs, but a lot really depends on who gets the charge.

If you're taking Praetorians, you should be taking RoC, and a Dlord with them. Just like you wouldn't take Lychguard without a Lord/OL, You shouldn't take Praetorians without a Dlord. Run the the math for shooting Attacks, HoW, and the charge,(Don't forget PE)

I've found that they tend to be suprior in taking out TH/SS termies, thanks to downing 1-2 with the shooting first.

Praetorians vs Grey Hunters

Perhaps I'm missing this, but I don't see this accounting for the Praetorians Shooting attacks as well?


I may be harping on this, but I want to emphasize, that Praetorians only really shine with a Dlord. He is what turns them from a mediocre unit, into a good one. These calculations really should take into account a Lord/OL with the Lychguard, and a Dlord with the Praetorians. You'd never run either of them, without that kind of support.

10 WS Lychguard charging 5 TH/SS Terminators kill 4.1 Terminators before they strike back. 10 Praetorians kill 2.7 and allow all the attacks to come back. That's without shooting or lords etc. but I still don't see a contest.

The shooting adds 1.4 kills which on balance will probably even it out. I see the choice between the two as being whether you want to rely on the extra AP2, 6" shot or another base attack at S7 AP1.

Lych still win for me. YMMV.

 Orkaswampa wrote:
In massive games i recommend disperison shields, otherwise warscythes are good unless you're against a terminator heavy army in which RoC is better. But generally 5x warscythes appeals to me greatly with the stats they got given on the FAQ

Considering both Warscythes and RoC will break termy armor, warscythes wound on 2+ and RoC on 3+ and the lychguard have an extra attack all around (and the RoC are unwieldy, while warscythes are not), I don't see how you come to the conclusion that RoC are better against Termies. Sure they have the shooting attack that breaks armor as well but it's only one time you get that and HoW is near pointless against them.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Orkaswampa wrote:
In massive games i recommend disperison shields, otherwise warscythes are good unless you're against a terminator heavy army in which RoC is better. But generally 5x warscythes appeals to me greatly with the stats they got given on the FAQ

Considering both Warscythes and RoC will break termy armor, warscythes wound on 2+ and RoC on 3+ and the lychguard have an extra attack all around (and the RoC are unwieldy, while warscythes are not), I don't see how you come to the conclusion that RoC are better against Termies. Sure they have the shooting attack that breaks armor as well but it's only one time you get that and HoW is near pointless against them.

RoC wounds on a 2+ vs T4. I don't see how you can say HoW is pointless, Extra hits and wounds are never useless.

 Sasori wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Orkaswampa wrote:
In massive games i recommend disperison shields, otherwise warscythes are good unless you're against a terminator heavy army in which RoC is better. But generally 5x warscythes appeals to me greatly with the stats they got given on the FAQ

Considering both Warscythes and RoC will break termy armor, warscythes wound on 2+ and RoC on 3+ and the lychguard have an extra attack all around (and the RoC are unwieldy, while warscythes are not), I don't see how you come to the conclusion that RoC are better against Termies. Sure they have the shooting attack that breaks armor as well but it's only one time you get that and HoW is near pointless against them.

RoC wounds on a 2+ vs T4. I don't see how you can say HoW is pointless, Extra hits and wounds are never useless.

Oh, right, sorry, forgot they were inherent S5.

I said "nearly" pointless. It wounds on a 3+ and the termies get their 2+ save against it. You'll be hard pressed to get EVERY praetorian in base contact on the charge as well so your best bet is 1/2 of them. Still, best case scenario out of 10 auto-hits, 7 wound..."maybe" one fails. Big whoop, I'll take the extra attack EVERY round on lychguard any day of the week, not to mention going before TH/PF/PA whatever else is I1.

Gangrel767 wrote:
Does anyone use the Praetorians with Particle Casters and Voidblades? I have a unit of ten I was using a lot in 5th as powerful anti-vehicle, but haven't tried them out in 6th yet.

I still run mine with VP/PC, and they absolutely brutalize tanks. They also make combined assaults with the Wraiths against Death Stars and MCs rather deadly, as the Wraiths throw down the WC while the TPs strip the armor save off. The extra range of the pistols combined with the DLord's PE is also a nice buff.

I have plenty of anti term weaponry elsewhere in my list, however if you find that area lacking I would advocate the RoC and run them as Sasori does. I haven't played with LG nearly enough to confidently comment on them, however I just find their lack of mobility to be the real tipping point. I run 20+ JI in my list though, so I'm a bit predisposed to speed.