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Ok folks, I've been attempting to work out appropriate dimensions for my Rhino, so I can size my templates properly for printing, but either my math is totally borked, or FW's dimensions for the vehicle are absolutely absurd.

Bear with me;

Forgeworld stats:

Length: 6.6 metres
Width: 4.5 metres
Height: 3.6 metres

28mm is approx 6 feet which = 1.8m in-scale.

Therefore - (Dimension/1.8)*28 = In-scale dimension.

L = 102mm = approx. 4 inches
W = 70mm = approx. 2.75 inches
H = 56mm = approx. 2.2 inches

That's slightly smaller than the GW model. Which makes zero sense, since the GW model would struggle to fit 10 normal humans in it, nevermind 10 Space Marines with half-again the height and almost double the mass. So, is it my maths, or is this just another case of FW extracting numbers from their backside with no regard for practicality?

Your best bet would be to use the FV432 as the chassis, but good luck with the project!

I think the heroic scale is throwing you off. I mean look at the M113 APC which could carry about ten fully loaded soldiers, now if you take into account 8ft tall marines in power armor (2.5m) the rhino could hold ten of them, there wouldn't be much room but they could all fit. In short your calculations are mostly correct and the FW dimensions are also correct but since 40k is heroic scale everything looks out of proportion.

size comparison
Rhino
Length- 21.65ft
Width- 14.76ft
height- 11.81ft

M113 APC
Length- 15.95ft
Width- 8.81ft
Height- 8.2ft

Guarder22 wrote:
I think the heroic scale is throwing you off. I mean look at the M113 APC which could carry about ten fully loaded soldiers, now if you take into account 8ft tall marines in power armor (2.5m) the rhino could hold ten of them, there wouldn't be much room but they could all fit. In short your calculations are mostly correct and the FW dimensions are also correct but since 40k is heroic scale everything looks out of proportion.

size comparison
Rhino
Length- 21.65ft
Width- 14.76ft
height- 11.81ft

M113 APC
Length- 15.95ft
Width- 8.81ft
Height- 8.2ft

I'd agree if those measurements for of the troop compartment, but that's the total size of the vehicle, which gives a volume of approx 107 cubic metres. When you account for the irregular shape, lets say 90m3 in total, but about a third(conservatively) of that volume is taken up by the armour and drive units, which leaves approx 60m3 into which you must fit 11 Marines(squad plus driver) in full armour(including backpacks), their weapons, spare ammunition, seats for them, the dividing wall between forward and troop compartments, the control mechanisms, and the battlefield tactical systems. When you account for the bulk of their physiology, a Marine in full armour plus his bolter and a seat will mass around 2.5 cubic metres when seated, which means another 27.5m3 of volume gone. Now, the remaining 32.5m3 may sound like a lot, but when you consider the actual shape of the vehicle, the locations of the access points and internal structure, I don't see how you could fit them and all the equipment in and still leave them sufficient room to actually deploy.

EDIT: To give you an idea of the scale of the problem(ahahaha );



Those are the dimensions of a GW Rhino next to an Artscale Marine(ie, Truescale, then adjusted for better proportions - about 10% larger than normal Truescale as a result).

What you have stumbled on is the true flaw with the whole 'Truescale' idea... People keep trying to 'fix' the scale by making Marines bigger, when the real problem isn't the size of the Marines, but the size of regular human models.

And we''re back to the old joke of.......

Whats the first test to become a TechMarine?......Fitting 10 SM into a Rhino... (insert rim shot here).

 insaniak wrote:
What you have stumbled on is the true flaw with the whole 'Truescale' idea... People keep trying to 'fix' the scale by making Marines bigger, when the real problem isn't the size of the Marines, but the size of regular human models.

Actually, no, because non-heroic models are still the same height when fully upright as standard GW models, they're just better proportioned; my DKoK, my Titan Princeps, and my event-only Enforcer all stand just as tall as a plastic Cadian, but they have more slender limbs, smaller hands, feet, and heads, and more appropriately-sized equipment. So if a 28mm Heroic mini is 6 feet/1.8m tall in-scale, so is a 28mm "truscale" human, meaning an 8 feet/2.5m tall Marine is still going to be approaching 40mm, slightly over if you use "artscale".

The "problem" is GW's whackaloon vehicle scaling, which wasn't that accurate to begin with, and has been compounded because all the modern tank kits were scaled based on the old Rhino kit, which was made back when the range was 25mm heroic scale.

Guarder22 actually did answer the question for you already.

The real world M113 was designed for a crew of 2 plus 11 passengers and all their kit (weapons, ALICE packs, flack jackets, helmets...). It was (exterior dimensions - not crew quarters) 4.863 meters long, 2.686 meters wide and 2.5 meters tall.

The Imperial Armour description for the Rhino puts it at 6.6 meters long, 4.5 meters wide and 3.6 meters tall with a crew of one and 10 beefie passengers. There is even a picture of how they arrange themselves in the IA:2 book (3x3 in the back portion with the squad leader riding shotgun next to the driver).

The truescale (or 1 to 1 scale) Rhino would be plenty tall in order to allow everyone to ride around standing up - no need for sitting. Even given 8 foot tall or so (which is on the larger side of the Übermensch scale) you can fit 10 marines without even scratching your head too much - armor and all.

APCs are not comfortable to ride in. Leg room is not a selling point. The Rhino does work in true scale.

 Yodhrin wrote:
my DKoK, my Titan Princeps, and my event-only Enforcer all stand just as tall as a plastic Cadian, but they have more slender limbs, smaller hands, feet, and heads, and more appropriately-sized equipment.

Which, if you use Marines as the standard rather than the other way around, makes those models too tall.

So if a 28mm Heroic mini is 6 feet/1.8m tall in-scale, so is a 28mm "truscale" human, meaning an 8 feet/2.5m tall Marine is still going to be approaching 40mm, slightly over if you use "artscale".

Conversely, if a Marine is supposed to be 8 foot tall, a 6' tall human should be around 21mm tall. Although the fluff has suggested the at least some regular humans are taller than is the norm these days... Gaunt was described at being just over 2m tall, from memory, and that wasn't mentioned as being anything unusual.

GW isn't in the business of making scale models. They don't have to be consistent with other supposedly 28mm minatures... as gaming pieces rather than scale models, they don't even really have to be consistent within their own miniatures range, and I suspect that potential inter-connectivity features far more in the planning of the miniatures designers than real-world scale.

The "problem" is GW's whackaloon vehicle scaling, which wasn't that accurate to begin with, and has been compounded because all the modern tank kits were scaled based on the old Rhino kit, which was made back when the range was 25mm heroic scale.

GW's vehicles tend to be slightly small, but not really by that much. The only reason ou can't fit 10 marines in a rhino is the roof is about 5mm too low. And some of that is just because the plastic is thicker than the actual armour would be.

 insaniak wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
my DKoK, my Titan Princeps, and my event-only Enforcer all stand just as tall as a plastic Cadian, but they have more slender limbs, smaller hands, feet, and heads, and more appropriately-sized equipment.

Which, if you use Marines as the standard rather than the other way around, makes those models too tall.

So if a 28mm Heroic mini is 6 feet/1.8m tall in-scale, so is a 28mm "truscale" human, meaning an 8 feet/2.5m tall Marine is still going to be approaching 40mm, slightly over if you use "artscale".

Conversely, if a Marine is supposed to be 8 foot tall, a 6' tall human should be around 21mm tall. Although the fluff has suggested the at least some regular humans are taller than is the norm these days... Gaunt was described at being just over 2m tall, from memory, and that wasn't mentioned as being anything unusual.

But why would I use the Marines as the standard when, first, the scale is assumed to be proper for a 6' tall human, and second, when regular Marine models are horribly out of proportion? FW humans and true/artscale Marines gives me proportionate humans AND proportionate Marines, which would be impossible using 21mm basic humans as it would mean using non-GW miniatures meaning no store play for me. As for Gaunt, all Catachans are likely taller than your average human as well, but you don't set your baseline by the exceptions, you set it by the average.

GW isn't in the business of making scale models. They don't have to be consistent with other supposedly 28mm minatures... as gaming pieces rather than scale models, they don't even really have to be consistent within their own miniatures range, and I suspect that potential inter-connectivity features far more in the planning of the miniatures designers than real-world scale.

GW can do what they like, I'm in the business of enjoying myself, and that means artscale Marines at the moment.

The "problem" is GW's whackaloon vehicle scaling, which wasn't that accurate to begin with, and has been compounded because all the modern tank kits were scaled based on the old Rhino kit, which was made back when the range was 25mm heroic scale.

GW's vehicles tend to be slightly small, but not really by that much. The only reason ou can't fit 10 marines in a rhino is the roof is about 5mm too low. And some of that is just because the plastic is thicker than the actual armour would be.

I refer you again to the picture above. I don't see why everyone's getting so bloody confrontational over a simple question about how to work out what size I should print my Rhino templates out, ffs.

 Yodhrin wrote:
But why would I use the Marines as the standard when, first, the scale is assumed to be proper for a 6' tall human, and second, when regular Marine models are horribly out of proportion?

Assumed by whom? Where have GW ever stated that their models are scaled around the idea of 28mm = 6'?

GW can do what they like, I'm in the business of enjoying myself, and that means artscale Marines at the moment.

And that's entirely your right. My point was simply that if you choose to alter your Marines to make them bigger than they are supposed to be, you might just run into some unexpected scale issues. Which is exactly what you were complaining about in your first post...

I refer you again to the picture above.

Which one? If you mean the picture of your stretched Marine not fitting into a sketched box, then I refer you again to my first post...

I don't see why everyone's getting so bloody confrontational over a simple question about how to work out what size I should print my Rhino templates out, ffs.

Simmer back there. Having a different opinion to yours isn't 'getting confrontational'...

 Yodhrin wrote:

I refer you again to the picture above. I don't see why everyone's getting so bloody confrontational over a simple question about how to work out what size I should print my Rhino templates out, ffs.

I must be missing the confrontational part. Looking at your picture, 10 marines would fit. They wouldn't be waiving their arms around or swinging an axe though. Again, like I said refer to the arraignment diagram from IA:2 as well as the real world example which Guarder22 provided.

As far as the size you will work with - all depends on how you interpret the scale of your marines. Figure out what you think the height should be, measure the height of your miniature and calculate the scale based on that. Scale your templates to coincide with the scale you calculated for your miniatures.

To put things into perspective on the Real World Example - everyone in this photo, and everything they are carrying ride in the M113 which is almost hidden behind them:



10 Space Marines and 1 driver will fit in a properly scaled Rhino. Pick your scale and stick to it - don't mess with silly sizes though.

Basically none of the scales, measurements or models fit eachother. Your best bet is to start from scratch, measure your truescale marine and design a rhino that would accomodate 10 of his size in the crew compartment, then build the metal bawkz around that.

Mathwise you're off in the fact that you introduce 28mm=1.8m. You have the FW inbook measurements and the GW model, using those two you'd get the scale, which turns out varies (just by using those measurements) from between 1.53cm/m and 1.74cm/m. Comparing the inbook measurements with the model you get three different scales, one for height, one for length and one for width. So already there you're in a mess.

There's no way getting around the fact that stated numbers don't compare with model measurements. There's not even any reason to discuss it or try to rationalize or justify, all we can say is that GW haven't built things to scale. Period.

So to build your truescale rhino, you'd have to measure your truescale marine and then upscale the existing rhino to where your guys can fit in the crew compartment. Once done you'll have a rhino that doesn't fit the FW measurements, but at least it'll be "funtionally" to scale vs your marines.

Based on 40k rules, any transport in 40k universe have a portal to another dimension, probably a pocket dimension.

The space inside that pocket dimension is just infinite, but codex astartes states that only 10 marines can go into it at the same time (and you know, dont matter how stupid it looks, codex astartes is always right).

I base this afirmation on a serie of rules from Warhammer 40k (the game), specially those related to doom of malanthai and area effects used inside of a vehicle.

 Yodhrin wrote:
I don't see why everyone's getting so bloody confrontational over a simple question about how to work out what size I should print my Rhino templates out, ffs.

You've been told. The FW measurements are perfectly adequate. They are significantly larger than existing APC transports.

Just use the land raider, I am also thinking of doing this, you pretty much need to remove the sponsons, and remake the front a bit to look more like a rhino. You can even cut up the engines in the back and throw them on the sides. It actually looks like 10 truescale marines can fit inside.

And it's a plus ruleswise, because with the rules being so weak for vehicles now, rhinos are just a joke. Marines should be able to assault out of one anyway! This way you can even count your truescale guys as terminators and the rhino as a land raider if you want to.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Guarder22 wrote:
I think the heroic scale is throwing you off. I mean look at the M113 APC which could carry about ten fully loaded soldiers, now if you take into account 8ft tall marines in power armor (2.5m) the rhino could hold ten of them, there wouldn't be much room but they could all fit. In short your calculations are mostly correct and the FW dimensions are also correct but since 40k is heroic scale everything looks out of proportion.

size comparison
Rhino
Length- 21.65ft
Width- 14.76ft
height- 11.81ft

M113 APC
Length- 15.95ft
Width- 8.81ft
Height- 8.2ft

I'd agree if those measurements for of the troop compartment, but that's the total size of the vehicle, which gives a volume of approx 107 cubic metres. When you account for the irregular shape, lets say 90m3 in total, but about a third(conservatively) of that volume is taken up by the armour and drive units, which leaves approx 60m3 into which you must fit 11 Marines(squad plus driver) in full armour(including backpacks), their weapons, spare ammunition, seats for them, the dividing wall between forward and troop compartments, the control mechanisms, and the battlefield tactical systems. When you account for the bulk of their physiology, a Marine in full armour plus his bolter and a seat will mass around 2.5 cubic metres when seated, which means another 27.5m3 of volume gone. Now, the remaining 32.5m3 may sound like a lot, but when you consider the actual shape of the vehicle, the locations of the access points and internal structure, I don't see how you could fit them and all the equipment in and still leave them sufficient room to actually deploy.

EDIT: To give you an idea of the scale of the problem(ahahaha );



Those are the dimensions of a GW Rhino next to an Artscale Marine(ie, Truescale, then adjusted for better proportions - about 10% larger than normal Truescale as a result).

Doesn't that just prove that the marines wouldn't be able to lie down next to each other in the rhino, not that's they can't stand or even sit next to each other? I've not done the measurements, but the biggest part of a marine is his shoulders, if you can fit 3 shoulder widths across the rhino and 3 shoulder widths lengthwise, you should happily (maybe not in extreme comfort) fit in 9 marines. Then when it comes to disembarking, sure they won't be able to rush out the side exits at the ready, but given they're Space Marines I'd assume they've practiced a few thousand times the fastest way to get out and keep dealing death, and the rear exit which flips down looks to me like you could fit 3 marines across it so if they jump out the rear, 3 marines could instantly be firing as soon as the hatch opens then as they move out (quickly I'm sure) the next 3 would be able to fire as well.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
I don't see why everyone's getting so bloody confrontational over a simple question about how to work out what size I should print my Rhino templates out, ffs.

You've been told. The FW measurements are perfectly adequate. They are significantly larger than existing APC transports.

"You've been told"? Get tae...

Right, sod it, done. Forget it. I retract the question, I'll figure it out on my own, and now I know not to bother asking anything here.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
I don't see why everyone's getting so bloody confrontational over a simple question about how to work out what size I should print my Rhino templates out, ffs.

You've been told. The FW measurements are perfectly adequate. They are significantly larger than existing APC transports.

"You've been told"? Get tae...

Right, sod it, done. Forget it. I retract the question, I'll figure it out on my own, and now I know not to bother asking anything here.

Told as in informed, not told as in "Dude! You totally got told!"

Gw rhinos are tiny. There is no way of fitting them marines in. Even uncomfortably. Personally I just wouldn't use them if you want a certain degree of realism in ure army. Use a land raider.

Please don't commit thread necromancy for a redundant comment. The last post in this thread was in September.