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Is it possible to use hundreds, if not thousands of Sanctioned Psykers to lever open an Eldar prisoner's mind, then have Librarians plant control and remote viewing protocols in their mind, and then seal their memories of the event? The prisoners would then be returned (prisoner exchange/ransom), but are bound to a psychic control gem in the possession of the Inquisition, allowing them to passively control and even view what said Eldar are doing/experiencing.

Yeah, I would assume. The =I= has some cray gak

Possible, yes. But would they commit that many.librarians to one task? Probably not...

I think the trick would not so much be prying open an eldar's mind, but the mind control part. I'm not even sure if multiple psykers could focus on mind-controlling the same person.

Back in the days when Eldar and SM psykers had mastery levels (that made sense - inasmuch as any of 40k makes ANY kind of sense) - A SM master librarian was Lvl 4 (equal to a Farseer). They wouldn't even need thousands of psykers.

Against a lesser Eldar (with lesser training and psychic defenses), a librarian could probably blow the poor eldar's mind apart. One doesn't do delicate surgery with SM. Subtlety is not their forte.

Whether the eldar would continue to function as anything other than a drooling husk (See: Emperor of mankind) is arguable.

They might with practice, get the procedure down to where they could do it without killing the eldar - it'll probably take a few hundred captives - the Imperium is VERY thorough and it all has to be documented - and return him, to his people but I think the Eldar might notice "Bob is acting strange".

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Possible, yes. But would they commit that many.librarians to one task? Probably not...

Let me clarify - the Librarians just do the final part (installing control and remote viewing protocols and memory sealing), once the Sanctioned Psykers have opened up (or rather, levered open) the Eldar's mental barriers.

 chromedog wrote:


They might with practice, get the procedure down to where they could do it without killing the eldar - it'll probably take a few hundred captives - the Imperium is VERY thorough and it all has to be documented - and return him, to his people but I think the Eldar might notice "Bob is acting strange".

In that case, just spread out the experiments on prisoners from multiple Craftworlds. As for acting strange, the overseeing Inquisitor should only activate the control protocol at a critical moment, otherwise, just use the remote viewing protocol, so as to not squander the advantages of the system.

Its probably doable -the Eldar have doen it the Imperium (see Lord of the Night) but its making sure the Eldar mind etc is functional and not dectable after the experience is likely more difficult.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its probably doable -the Eldar have doen it the Imperium (see Lord of the Night) but its making sure the Eldar mind etc is functional and not dectable after the experience is likely more difficult.

As Chromedog pointed out, it'll take time and practice. I propose the initial test subjects be non-psychic Humans, 'lesser' Human psykers, then Dark Eldar, then Corsairs. Once that's done, and the process is refined to the point its unnoticeable, then move on to the true targets - the Craftworld Eldar.

I would be a bit worried about the possible risks of having so much psychic activity in one place concentrating on a single mind, if I read that correctly.

Pulling that much from the warp at one place at one time can only lead to disaster.

I guess it would be possible though, but why bother when they have Callidus Assassins?

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I would be a bit worried about the possible risks of having so much psychic activity in one place concentrating on a single mind, if I read that correctly.

Pulling that much from the warp at one place at one time can only lead to disaster.

Not if you do it within concentric rings of psychic barriers and anti-daemonic/anti-sorcerous wards.

I guess it would be possible though, but why bother when they have Callidus Assassins?

Because the Callidus lack psychic powers, and as such long-term infiltration would prove impossible. Besides, deploying Callidus Assassins would require the approval of the High Lords of Terra, whereas subverting Eldar would just need informing the local Inquisitorial Conclave.

 Tadashi wrote:


Not if you do it within concentric rings of psychic barriers and anti-daemonic/anti-sorcerous wards.

Wouldn't that severe the link to the warp though

 Tadashi wrote:


Because the Callidus lack psychic powers, and as such long-term infiltration would prove impossible. Besides, deploying Callidus Assassins would require the approval of the High Lords of Terra, whereas subverting Eldar would just need informing the local Inquisitorial Conclave.

Is that the case for all Callidus? Meh'lindi was supposed to have acted as an Eldar for some period of time, it's an old book, but I know you like to use it as a source.

I'm not sure if the Inquisition would be able to get away with it, it would more than likely attract interest from within its own ranks more than anything else. Not so much do to it's intention and involvement with Eldar, who cares about Xenos anyway, but more from the potential risks from so much psychic activity.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:


Not if you do it within concentric rings of psychic barriers and anti-daemonic/anti-sorcerous wards.

Wouldn't that severe the link to the warp though

Not necessarily, seeing as the Grey Knights' armor (and the entirety of the Nameless Fortress) is inscribed with those same wards...and the same goes for the Imperial Palace and the Forbidden Fortress - the Grey Knights, the Emperor, and the members of the psychic branches of the Adeptus Terra have no problem it.

I'm not sure if the Inquisition would be able to get away with it, it would more than likely attract interest from within its own ranks more than anything else. Not so much do to it's intention and involvement with Eldar, who cares about Xenos anyway, but more from the potential risks from so much psychic activity.

The Inquisition is a big place, with all sorts of secrets...a cabal of Inquisitors with mutual interests vested in the matter could pull it off.

Wouldn't require so many, probably a Chief Librarian could do it alone if the Eldar is young/inexperienced. Path of the Seer has the Chief Librarian of the Sons of Orar overwhelm the mind of a Alaitoc Farseer and steal information from it....

No, the thing you describe is not possible.

No one in the Imperium has that kind of resources to throw around except the Inquisition. But the Inquisition would never involved Space Marines in their secret plans, since they can't hide the Space Marine bodies very well. Also, the Inquisition would have no reason to do such a thing. If they want to know what any particular Eldar they can capture knows, they have plenty of ways to pull that out of him without going through all this trouble.

Don't the space marines have that 'eat your brain to get your memories' thing?

probably possible, however the possibility that a commissar puts a bolt through the back of the prisoners head is a lot more likely....
.....i love the imperium

 Tadashi wrote:
Is it possible to use hundreds, if not thousands of Sanctioned Psykers to lever open an Eldar prisoner's mind, then have Librarians plant control and remote viewing protocols in their mind, and then seal their memories of the event? The prisoners would then be returned (prisoner exchange/ransom), but are bound to a psychic control gem in the possession of the Inquisition, allowing them to passively control and even view what said Eldar are doing/experiencing.

I think this is possible, however I think that any competent Farseer would be able to see/feel that something was wrong with the Eldar psychically and take action. Basically Runes of Warding the connection between the Eldar and the Librarian away or slaying the Eldar out right deeming him a threat to the Craftworld.

 DarknessEternal wrote:


No one in the Imperium has that kind of resources to throw around except the Inquisition. But the Inquisition would never involved Space Marines in their secret plans, since they can't hide the Space Marine bodies very well. Also, the Inquisition would have no reason to do such a thing. If they want to know what any particular Eldar they can capture knows, they have plenty of ways to pull that out of him without going through all this trouble.

What bodies? Librarians will only be involved by the time the mental barriers have been levered open. And its not interrogation - the whole concept is meant to create eyes and ears (and sleeper agents) within Corsair Fleets, Craftworlds, and the Dark City.

 Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
Is it possible to use hundreds, if not thousands of Sanctioned Psykers to lever open an Eldar prisoner's mind, then have Librarians plant control and remote viewing protocols in their mind, and then seal their memories of the event? The prisoners would then be returned (prisoner exchange/ransom), but are bound to a psychic control gem in the possession of the Inquisition, allowing them to passively control and even view what said Eldar are doing/experiencing.

I think this is possible, however I think that any competent Farseer would be able to see/feel that something was wrong with the Eldar psychically and take action. Basically Runes of Warding the connection between the Eldar and the Librarian away or slaying the Eldar out right deeming him a threat to the Craftworld.

Its possible...but psychic abilities (even that of Eldar) are not that easily predictable. And while that might be the case with the Craftworlds and maybe the Corsair Fleets, it certainly won't with Dark Eldar.

 Tadashi wrote:


Not necessarily, seeing as the Grey Knights' armor (and the entirety of the Nameless Fortress) is inscribed with those same wards...and the same goes for the Imperial Palace and the Forbidden Fortress - the Grey Knights, the Emperor, and the members of the psychic branches of the Adeptus Terra have no problem it.

Also true, but what you are suggesting is something different. A concentration of so many psykers on a single mind would act like a vortex. I don't think any number of wards would be able to prevent some calamity from happening.

 Tadashi wrote:
The Inquisition is a big place, with all sorts of secrets...a cabal of Inquisitors with mutual interests vested in the matter could pull it off.

Yeah, much like the Order of the Hydra

They would probably get away with it for some time, but an irregularity like this would be noticeable and draw all types of unwanted attention. Imagine if the forces of Chaos could harness something like this? Would be like the warp scream in Void Stalker, but the other way around.

 Harriticus wrote:
Wouldn't require so many, probably a Chief Librarian could do it alone if the Eldar is young/inexperienced. Path of the Seer has the Chief Librarian of the Sons of Orar overwhelm the mind of a Alaitoc Farseer and steal information from it....

Or this would be better.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:


I think this is possible, however I think that any competent Farseer would be able to see/feel that something was wrong with the Eldar psychically and take action. Basically Runes of Warding the connection between the Eldar and the Librarian away or slaying the Eldar out right deeming him a threat to the Craftworld.

Its possible...but psychic abilities (even that of Eldar) are not that easily predictable. And while that might be the case with the Craftworlds and maybe the Corsair Fleets, it certainly won't with Dark Eldar.

Which also raises another question, Eldar Minds are supposed to be so much more complex than humans or Astartes, would this even be possible?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Also true, but what you are suggesting is something different. A concentration of so many psykers on a single mind would act like a vortex. I don't think any number of wards would be able to prevent some calamity from happening.

A fair point - but we have a precedents. Lord Inquisitor Krypttman did sacrifice a similarly huge number of psykers to pierce the Warp beyond the edge of the galaxy, and lets not forget the Astronomican, shall we?

 Harriticus wrote:
Wouldn't require so many, probably a Chief Librarian could do it alone if the Eldar is young/inexperienced. Path of the Seer has the Chief Librarian of the Sons of Orar overwhelm the mind of a Alaitoc Farseer and steal information from it....

Or this would be better.

You're missing my point. I don't need a limited set of data from a single interrogation - the whole idea is to create sleeper agents and moles within Eldar society.

Which also raises another question, Eldar Minds are supposed to be so much more complex than humans or Astartes, would this even be possible?

Not really. They feel things on a deeper level, true, but apparently their thought patterns aren't all that different from ours. Which shouldn't be surprising, seeing as they are elves in space...

While I think that the Imperium has psykers powerful enough to do this, and the Inquisition might even be interested in doing this,
I very much doubt they'd ask a space marine librarian to do this.

Given their propensity for violence (having been bred for it, essentially), Librarian powers just aren't subtle enough.

So yes, it's possible within the framework of 40K. Then again, eldar are noted as being far more advanced and subtle psykers than humans, so whether it would remain undetected is very much up for grabs.

If the purpose is to create sleep agents then I wouldn't see it working. The Infinity circuit would pick it up the instant the Eldar returned. In which I assume that the Farseers would conduct their "ultimate sanction", where they remove the psychic part of the Eldar brain.

And no, the Eldar minds are far more complex than human minds.

I'd suggest reading Path of the Seer, it offers a huge insight into the Eldar psyche

Bran Dawri wrote:


So yes, it's possible within the framework of 40K. Then again, eldar are noted as being far more advanced and subtle psykers than humans, so whether it would remain undetected is very much up for grabs.

Point taken - but what about Dark Eldar?

 The_Solitaire wrote:

And no, the Eldar minds are far more complex than human minds.

Only because they're psykers - remove that, and their culture, and they're just tall Humans with pointy-ears.

 Tadashi wrote:


A fair point - but we have a precedents. Lord Inquisitor Krypttman did sacrifice a similarly huge number of psykers to pierce the Warp beyond the edge of the galaxy, and lets not forget the Astronomican, shall we?

But that's different, they are being released and the energy either dispersing or being used to power something, essentially back into the warp. You're pulling from the warp in this.

 Tadashi wrote:


You're missing my point. I don't need a limited set of data from a single interrogation - the whole idea is to create sleeper agents and moles within Eldar society.

Would elaborate further then please? I am taking it that you would use hundreds or thousands of psykers to open an Eldars mind and then implant these suggestions and protocols into it so that they can effectively be controlled.

 Tadashi wrote:

Not really. They feel things on a deeper level, true, but apparently their thought patterns aren't all that different from ours. Which shouldn't be surprising, seeing as they are elves in space...

They also are supposed to feel extremes that are unimaginable to humans, how would a human psyker deal with something to extreme that it can't comprehend? Do humans know the minds of Elves?

 Tadashi wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The_Solitaire wrote:

And no, the Eldar minds are far more complex than human minds.

Only because they're psykers - remove that, and their culture, and they're just tall Humans with pointy-ears.

Not by a long-shot. They still have superior intelligence, physical capabilies and their thought processes are still just as intense, if not more so now that they can't rely on psychic powers.

I would have thought it more likely the inquisition would try create a psychic callidus breeding programme and then use the psykers to strip and transfer memory's from captured eldar, because the only thing worse than trusting a human psyker to the inquisition would be trusting a Xenos one

I say it can be done, in fact, probably has. Maybe not exactly in the way you described though.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Would elaborate further then please? I am taking it that you would use hundreds or thousands of psykers to open an Eldars mind and then implant these suggestions and protocols into it so that they can effectively be controlled.

Pretty much

They also are supposed to feel extremes that are unimaginable to humans, how would a human psyker deal with something to extreme that it can't comprehend? Do humans know the minds of Elves?

Um...yes? It takes time, but the Inquisition can decipher and analyze Eldar records/artifacts.

 The_Solitaire wrote:


Not by a long-shot. They still have superior intelligence, physical capabilies and their thought processes are still just as intense, if not more so now that they can't rely on psychic powers.

Are they really? I recall a Mandrake (who is technically an Eldar without psychic powers) got out-hunted by an Imperial Guardsman. If ol'Mkoll could do it, I'm sure others have done it too. Don't look down on Humans, xenos filth, 'cuz we're just getting started...

 Tadashi wrote:


Um...yes? It takes time, but the Inquisition can decipher and analyze Eldar records/artifacts.

A human interpretation of something might be wide off the mark from the Eldars initial intention, its also totally different from taking a walk in an Eldars mind. I would imagine it would be like the situation with Kai and the Argo from Outcast Dead, only much more dangerous.

A good quote, not from an Inquisitor granted, but sums up an individual understanding of the Eldar.

Trust not in their appearance, for the Eldar are as alien to good, honest men as the vile Tyranids and savage Orks. There is no understanding them for there is nothing to understand - they are a random force in the universe - Imperial Commander Abriel Hume

Also from an Inquisitor on Farseers

The mind of the Farseer is utterly inhuman in its depth and complexity. Without mercy or moral feeling, his consciousness stands upon the edge of spiritual destruction. That he does not fall must be a result of constraints and balances that only an Eldar could understand. To a mere Human it is yet another reminder that we are but children in comparison to that ancient and powerful race - Inquisitor Czevak

And therefore not truly someone qualified to comment on the subject.

EDIT: Regarding the Farseers - I'm not that impressed. If Librarians could blow them apart with raw power, then so much for complexity - usually complexity implies greater power and efficiency, but it doesn't look that way too me.