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Hey Team,
How do the terminators, sternguard and vanguard veterans fit into the 1st company organization? I'm trying to come up with some details, markings for my figs.
Thanks

I believe the general convention is to have the Terminators first in the squad numbering roster, with the power armoured units after them... But the exact number of each would come down to how many suits of Terminator Armour the Chapter has.

A chapter's 1st company is made up entirely of veterans. All Terminators are veterans, but not all veterans have earned Terminator Armour. Usually the veterans who have Terminator Honours will wear their power armour and only don terminator armour when the situation calls for it, but some chapters have squads that always wear terminator armour. The break up between sternguard and vanguard is also really dependent on the chapter. For instance, Index Astartes tells us that every member of the Blood Angels 1st company is a vanguard veteran.

The 1st company is comprised of Veterans. These Veterans have access to armour and equipment that allows them to deploy as either Terminators, Sternguard or Veterans depending on which is needed at the time. It also depends on Chapters, Dark Angels have more Terminator armor than any other Chapter, Blood Angels prefer Vanguards etc. I think that you just use 1st company markings for them all, while Terminators also have Terminator Honors. Markings also vary from Chapter to Chapter.

In my chapters organization ( the one i made up) It is 50 sternguard and 50 vanguard and 50 regular termies and 50 assault termies but that is my chapter

 insaniak wrote:
I believe the general convention is to have the Terminators first in the squad numbering roster, with the power armoured units after them... But the exact number of each would come down to how many suits of Terminator Armour the Chapter has.

A marine can be in a terminator squad and in a veteran squad. Terminator squads are numbered 1-20, and veteran squads are 1-10. They do not come before or after one another.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
I believe the general convention is to have the Terminators first in the squad numbering roster, with the power armoured units after them... But the exact number of each would come down to how many suits of Terminator Armour the Chapter has.

A marine can be in a terminator squad and in a veteran squad. Terminator squads are numbered 1-20, and veteran squads are 1-10. They do not come before or after one another.

Sternguard/vanguard were invented to sell models and you should assume they are all just veteran squads.

Index Astartes tells us that every member of the Blood Angels 1st company is a vanguard veteran.

i thought in codex blood angels it said vanguards outnumber sterngaurds not that all non termie vets are vangaurd vets.

commisar rhodes wrote:

Index Astartes tells us that every member of the Blood Angels 1st company is a vanguard veteran.

i thought in codex blood angels it said vanguards outnumber sterngaurds not that all non termie vets are vangaurd vets.

The Index Astartes in question is nearly ten years old now, I was just using it as an example.

yeah, they're not ALL vanguard, can you recall a certain game called "space hulk" (they were BLOOD ANGELS TERMINATORS)

 blood guard26 wrote:
yeah, they're not ALL vanguard, can you recall a certain game called "space hulk" (they were BLOOD ANGELS TERMINATORS)

The marines inside terminator armour are still either vanguard or sternguard veterans unless they hold some other rank. As I said earlier, most chapters' veterans will only wear terminator armour when the situation calls for it, otherwise they just go with their power armour and regular equipment. Regardless, the Index Astartes is ten years old as I mentioned.

Standard Codex Chapter:

50 suits of terminator armour in the veteran company.

All members of the veteran company can be either "stern" or "van".

Stern is regular veteran. Van is a veteran with a jump pack on.

Terminator is a veteran in terminator armour.

It is therefor possible that stern are normal termies while van are assault termies (when they don termie armour).

 DeffDred wrote:
Standard Codex Chapter:

50 suits of terminator armour in the veteran company.

All members of the veteran company can be either "stern" or "van".

Stern is regular veteran. Van is a veteran with a jump pack on.

Terminator is a veteran in terminator armour.

It is therefor possible that stern are normal termies while van are assault termies (when they don termie armour).

Correct as far as I can tell. I think most chapters have significantly more sternguard veterans than vanguard veterans, but thats just my guess based on extrapolation of tactical/assault squad ratio.

According to the Ultramarine organisation chart in the codex the company numbers 97 veterans.
So i'd imagine they either mix and match squads or the squads simply choose their role according to their preferences and the situation or on request from a company captain.

 purplefood wrote:
According to the Ultramarine organisation chart in the codex the company numbers 97 veterans.
So i'd imagine they either mix and match squads or the squads simply choose their role according to their preferences and the situation or on request from a company captain.

Yeah, I believe that each veteran chooses which role they will serve in the company, but I don't know how they organize squads in such a situation.

I'd assume they have squads and then they add any newly raised members to the 1st company to a squad which needs the reinforcements...

I believe that all the first Company Veterans wear Power Armor most of the time. Hence we have Vanguard and Sternguard squads. Then when Terminator armor is required to be fielded the squads will change into their TDA.

In chapters without enough TDA to go around they will have a few veterans that don't get Terminator armor.


Most established chapters will have enough TDA to equip the entire 1st.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Most established chapters will have enough TDA to equip the entire 1st.

I would question that, actually... Might be out of date now, but I vaguely recall a mention somewhere along the line of the Dark Angels being the only Chapter able to field their entire first company in TDA.

AFAIK most chapters will only have enough for a couple squads at most. I think the 1st foundings in general might have more. The Space Hulk story mentions that there are 86 members of the Blood Angels 1st company present, all in terminator armour. Presumably the missing 15 would probably have been on other missions too far away to bother recalling.

It obviously depends on the chapter.

The younger a chapter, the less likely they are to have enough TDA. But an older chapter should have sufficient stockpiles to do most of their company.

All that the fluff really says is that, ideally, the entire first company should have TDA avaliable. And that some chapters don't have enough to do this.

Not to mention, tda is constantly being found, traded, given, uncovered, broken and worst of all destroyed (thanks to a certain race of robot zombies and giant bugs that eat EVERYTHING)

It really is completely chapter dependent.

As far as 'official codex chapter' means anything, you just have 'Veterans' which might go to war equipped to be Sternguard or Vanguard or Terminators.

Most Chapter fluff emphasises strong bonds between members of a squad, and that squads serve together for decades. Also, in order to become a 1st company veteran, a battle brother has likely developed an aptitude for certain skills or weapons. Also also, that in many chapters, Sergeants get a lot of control over who they 'pick' for their squads.

Thus, it seems likely battle brothers might be promoted from their Tactical or Assault squad into, say, a noted 1st Company Vanguard squad because they show great ability and heroics in close combat, and the 1st company Sgt petitions for them. And that, while that Vanguard squad can technically be ordered to fight as anything, that partcular squad might always fight as Vanguard because of the character of it's sergeant and the veterans in it.

So, while a chapter's 1st company is on paper very flexible, it might be that, in 501.M40, the 1st company comprised 20 terminators, 60 sternguard and 20 vanguard. But then, 200 years later, it has 40 sternguard and 40 vanguard, based on who is promoted to the 1st company and how they like to fight.

Of course, a chapter might be more strict than this, but given the individualistic nature of Space Marines in the fluff (especially when Veterans) it seems a fair theory...

 blood guard26 wrote:
Not to mention, tda is constantly being found, traded, given, uncovered, broken and worst of all destroyed (thanks to a certain race of robot zombies and giant bugs that eat EVERYTHING)

And new suits are made occasionally. The technology to make them hasn't been lost. Its just easier to repair/find old suits.

oh yeah, that too...

So, if you were to make a "codex" first company of 100 men (10 squads), how would you split it between vanguard, sternguard, term and assault terms?

All Vanguard because they're awesome.

4 vanguard, 4 assault termies, 1 sternguard and 1 termies

 insaniak wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Most established chapters will have enough TDA to equip the entire 1st.

I would question that, actually... Might be out of date now, but I vaguely recall a mention somewhere along the line of the Dark Angels being the only Chapter able to field their entire first company in TDA.

DA..so the unforgiven...more like 6+ chapters able to do so.

TDA is available to all chapters, but we don't know the numbers so maybe some may and some may not field the whole 1st as Termies. Since the C:SM altered SM veterans to van-and sternguard, we also have a hint the vets can choose their armor and role. ( page 62 ).

See also C: SM page 16 , 2nd paragraph. ( hint: armor depends on the mission. )

I believe that the first company would rarely (thats not to say never) field as a whole, more like 1 squad attached to a company.
Or at least thats the case with Salamanders (1st book from Tome of Fire from BL) and Ultrasmurfs (the codex astartes aka codex space marines)

Djdom wrote:
So, if you were to make a "codex" first company of 100 men (10 squads), how would you split it between vanguard, sternguard, term and assault terms?

Van- 2 Squads
Stern- 3 Squads
Assault Terms- 2 Squads
Terms- 3 Squads

Djdom wrote:
So, if you were to make a "codex" first company of 100 men (10 squads), how would you split it between vanguard, sternguard, term and assault terms?

Ten squads of Assault Terminators. All of you shall how down before the might of my TH/SS!