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Just something out of curiousity. The rulebook says that a psyker outside a transport cannot target a unit embarked within one because they must have line of sight to the target.

But Maelstrom and Nova powers automatically targets and hits all units within the models maximum range regardless of line of sight, being locked in combat, intervening models/terrain, and so on.

Does the bolded part include those within transports?

Currently, yes. I cant see any reason why you cannot use the rules for embarked models to determine the unit is in range, and as such is hit.

Unless i've missed something, that is.

As I see it, there is never a time when one may target an embarked unit. Attacks go against the vehicle first, unless I am missing something.

Embarked models cannot be hit by psyker powers. It's the same as you can't shoot then either or hit them with blast weapons even if open top

My immediate feeling is that it doesn't work because you can't target embarked models and Maelstrom and Nova both specify that the unit is targeted.

However, on looking for rules to support this stance I can't find any rule that specifically prevents you from targeting embarked models.

So my conclusion is that RAW: Yes these attacks can effect embarked models, furthermore, any shooting attack that exempts a unit from needing Line of Sight can also target embarked models (e.g: Tau Smart Missile Systems and Tyranid Impaler Cannons)

Deleted.

I would say no, basing it on the FAQ that states that .

Can psychic powers or other effects that cause a Leadership test, for example the Tyranids’ Psychic Shriek, affect vehicles or units embarked upon transports? (p76 / p78)
A: No.

Targeted witchfire.


Q: Does the Doom of Malan’tai’s Spirit Leech ability affect units embarked in transport vehicles? (p58)
A: No.


Non Targetted special ability.

Eh, this is just one of those things that GW seems to assume everybody knows without ever actually writing the rule. So far they've always FAQ'd that the contents of a transport cannot be affected except by damage results on the transport itself (although 6th edition has some pretty major exceptions in using grenades on buildings), RaW notwithstanding.

Still not sure where everyone is missing the fact that you can't target embarked minis...

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Still not sure where everyone is missing the fact that you can't target embarked minis...

Where is this stated in the rules?

As I said before, I was pretty confident it was the case but in spite of that I couldn't find a rule to backup my opinion and was force to conclude the RAW doesn't support that stance.

I certainly would play it that you can't target embarked units, but as far as I can see at the moment the only RAW preventing you from targeting embarked units is the inability to draw LOS to the models in those units, so when the LOS restriction is removed, you are no longer prevented from targeting them.

My decision is based on a few things:

One is the rules that you cannot target embarked models with any weapons at all. No anti-tank weapon that I know of effects such units in any way other than shaken/stun results. As witchfire attacks all use shooting rules to sort out casualties nova and beam powers can't target embarked units.

Also as embarked units cannot make ld tests (or always make them) then wouldn't they automatically pass the deny the witch roll?

Third: how would you sort out how many models are hit? We don't know the dimensions of the crew compartment of any transport so how would you determine who us hit and who isn't? By saying all are hit then psykers just became the ultimate weapon vs transports.

There aren't any rules to damage embarked units except by blowing up their vehicle. That means you can't do it.
The same goes for people inside buildings. You can't target units inside buildings or vehicles with psychic powers.

AL-PiXeL01 wrote:
My decision is based on a few things:

One is the rules that you cannot target embarked models with any weapons at all. No anti-tank weapon that I know of effects such units in any way other than shaken/stun results. As witchfire attacks all use shooting rules to sort out casualties nova and beam powers can't target embarked units.

Also as embarked units cannot make ld tests (or always make them) then wouldn't they automatically pass the deny the witch roll?

Third: how would you sort out how many models are hit? We don't know the dimensions of the crew compartment of any transport so how would you determine who us hit and who isn't? By saying all are hit then psykers just became the ultimate weapon vs transports.

There aren't any rules to damage embarked units except by blowing up their vehicle. That means you can't do it.
The same goes for people inside buildings. You can't target units inside buildings or vehicles with psychic powers.

As mentioned I am yet to see a rule preventing you from targeting embarked units, if you have found such a rule, I would welcome you citing it.

Deny the Witch isn't a leadership test, for one it's only made on a single D6, but more importantly, is never described as a leadership test.

You don't need to know the dimensions of the crew compartment, you can determine range to a model via the hull.

You can damage people embarked in buildings using templates and grenades though, so there are rules for damaging embarked units with certain types of attacks, admittedly in a much more specific situation, but it is never the less possible.

The rules for building cover them only, not vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you state that nothing in the book says you can't do it, then show me the page where it says you can.
Nothing so far has been able to effect embarked units, unless explicitly written to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It says on p. 66 under Declare Target that psykers cannot target units inside transports.

Under nova it says it is treated as a shooting attack. Shooting attacks cannot hits embarked units, so neither can nova powers.

AL-PiXeL01 wrote:
The rules for building cover them only, not vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you state that nothing in the book says you can't do it, then show me the page where it says you can.
Nothing so far has been able to effect embarked units, unless explicitly written to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It says on p. 66 under Declare Target that psykers cannot target units inside transports.

Under nova it says it is treated as a shooting attack. Shooting attacks cannot hits embarked units, so neither can nova powers.

The basic shooting rules allow you to target any unit in range when the requirement for line of sight is removed, and the transport rules allow you to determine an embarked unit is in range by measuring to the hull of a transport, thusly, you can shoot at the models in the transport.

Unit A is standing outside Transport B
Unit A is an eligible Target
Unit A embarks on Transport B
it is now governed by the transport rules
none of which prohibit shooting the unit
Unit A is still an eligible Target so long as you do not require Line of Sight.

To demand a specific allowance for targeting a unit in a transport, in light of this, would be akin to someone saying "nothing in the walker rules say you can target them, so you can't" you still can because they are still a unit.

It says on Page 66 "Unless otherwise stated, the Psyker must have line of sight to his target. This means that a Psyker embarked on a Transport can only target himself, his vehicle or another unit embarked on the same vehicle as the Psyker. Similarly, a Psyker outside a Transport cannot target a unit embarked within one."

In context, it's clearly saying that this is an effect resulting on the "unless otherwise stated" rule, the hitch is, Maelstrom and Nova state otherwise, both specify the units they target and hit with the additional rule "regardless of line of sight" because they ignore line of sight, they are no longer beholden to the resultant effects of the "unless otherwise stated" line of sight restrictions.

Once again, why can't shooting attacks hit embarked units, please provide a quote to support this.

But you don't see the unit in the transport and nothing in this game allows you to hit an embarked unit no matter how you try a justify it. Your reading a loophole into something that's pretty simply answered. It's a silly argument, when astrial aim can't hit embarked units they don't need Los either. Paddantic comes to mind.

I fall back to the eldar FAQ about targeting units in vehicles, or the Doom of Malantai. Beings they were both assured with a FAQ it clearly seems GW's intent to not be able to "harm" inside of transports.

Lungpickle wrote:
But you don't see the unit in the transport

Thus the reason I repeatedly have said that you can only target them on the condition that no Line of Sight is needed.

and nothing in this game allows you to hit an embarked unit no matter how you try a justify it.

Except for the normal constructs of the rules which allow you to shoot at a unit.

Your reading a loophole into something that's pretty simply answered. It's a silly argument, when astrial aim can't hit embarked units they don't need Los either. Paddantic comes to mind.

RAW comes to mind, it's what I'm discussing, and just because you don't like the RAW isn't reason enough to dismiss it, the way the rules are written you can target embarked units so long as you do not need LOS.

P.S: Just looked, Astral Aim is only forbidden from going into/out of a vehicle with no fire points, so long as it has fire points it would just follow the RAW I have set out.