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So UK , US and many others have spent alot of blood and treasure in the last 11 years and the following has happened:-

1. Killed alot of Fighters in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan and drone striked terrorism suspects from Yemen to Sudan.
2. Accidentally and unintentionally killed alot of Civilians, helping out extremist recruitment.
3. Captured Saddam Hussein and Prosecuted him, and he was hung.
4. Killed Usama Bin Laden.
5. Over thrown Qaddafi and his Regime, with him being ripped to shreds by a crowd.
6. Played a diplomatic dance with Pakistan, with much backpatting, simultaneously performing Recon with each pat to work out where to stick the knife when the time comes.

Things we haven't done/ cannot be blamed for.

7. Egypt has changed from Dictatorship to Extremist tolerant society and will become a major problem in the future.
8. Much of the Extremism in Egypt has crossed the Border into Libya.
9. Syria felt left out of all the fighting so decided "how about we get rid of Assad?" despite putting up with him and his crony dad for years.
10. Somalia is slowly improving but fragile to fall apart if the Islamic council takes over mogadishu.
11. Sudan is split with a continuing low level civil war with islamic militia's and others making war on each other.
12. Israel Continues to piss everyone off, simply by existing and wants to hammer Iran.
13. Iran wants a showdown with someone/ anyone.
14. Saudi Arabia has not changed a bit.
15. Bahrain has civil strife as ruling elite want to remain in control over the masses.
16. Yemen is basically a written off Country.
17. Essentially the Middle East is awash with Weapons, and poorly educated, unemployed youths who play CoD and drive Toyota's.

But after all this are we any safer?

The last 24 hours have been insane, some madman makes a provocative movie on Islam and quelle surprise the Islamic World goes nuts. Once again most of this fury is vented on the US and every US Embassy becomes Target number 1 with American Diplomats Murdered. I cannot seem to find any facts about this crazy and ridiculous movie. Where it was made, who sanctioned it, who was the director? I have also read it was made months ago, and someone happened across it on Youtube. I have read 3-4 contradictory reports, which say it was in California to it was in Israel.

When is the middle East going to stop blaming the USA for absolutely everything?

"We are being killed by Dictator X, please America help us"

After a period the USA relents and helps

5 minutes later

"You Americans are all Infidels, die infidels"

It's like diplomatic schizophrenia.

I really don't have any feelings whatsoever about Islam, I'm just continually amazed and disgusted at how many middle eastern countries live in this crazy violent way and how they are managing to impact on a Global Scale. The future is really random with these Crazie's running around armed to the teeth. Is anyone slightly concerned that it's all getting a bit disturbingly close to Europe now? Malta is not that far North of Libya and Sicily is not far from Tunisia ! And a Greater Caliphate may actually be within Egypt's (Read Muslim Brotherhoods) grasp? The less said about Iran's long term goals the better! The future is not looking to promising, for the ideals of Peace and harmony.

EDIT - Wait till the BLURAY "Team America World Police" with Arabic translation hits the streets, we will all be F$*#ed!

 mwnciboo wrote:


When is the middle East going to stop blaming the USA for absolutely everything?

"We are being killed by Dictator X, please America help us"

After a period the USA relents and helps

5 minutes later

"You Americans are all Infidels, die infidels"

It's like diplomatic schizophrenia.

Well lets have a dose of honesty first. How many of those dictators did we overtly or covertly put into power in the first place? Saddam certainly, Mubarak I think, and lets think back to Iran. The Shah was kind of a gak head and the reactionary regime that replaced him is at least partially our responsibility. The US does not have a good track record abroad of picking good or even decent foriegn leaders, and we'd be better served if we didnt try.

That said the world community, and even some loud squakers domestically , demand action on our part when things fall apart. Its the same voices the denounce the US for interfering later. We are talking your friends and neighbors in the Eurozone here, so it's not a purely middle east thing.

I think Syria is a pretty good example of a case of the US saying, "No, you solve your own problems." and largely that's the attitude we need. When we wage war, even small ones it needs to be for purely selfish reasons. Let the civil wars of countries play themselves out. Those confrontations are none of our concern, unless they'd like to make a purchase; and then sell away. Not. our. problem. We can establish an embassy when the dust settles and deal with what comes up.
TLDR: Feth them all.

 AustonT wrote:

I think Syria is a pretty good example of a case of the US saying, "No, you solve your own problems." and largely that's the attitude we need. When we wage war, even small ones it needs to be for purely selfish reasons. Let the civil wars of countries play themselves out. Those confrontations are none of our concern, unless they'd like to make a purchase; and then sell away. Not. our. problem. We can establish an embassy when the dust settles and deal with what comes up.
TLDR: Feth them all.

EXACTLY

ITT: Oversimplifications and xenophobia

 AustonT wrote:

Well lets have a dose of honesty first. How many of those dictators did we overtly or covertly put into power in the first place? Saddam certainly, Mubarak I think, and lets think back to Iran. The Shah was kind of a gak head and the reactionary regime that replaced him is at least partially our responsibility. The US does not have a good track record abroad of picking good or even decent foriegn leaders, and we'd be better served if we didnt try.

That said the world community, and even some loud squakers domestically , demand action on our part when things fall apart. Its the same voices the denounce the US for interfering later. We are talking your friends and neighbors in the Eurozone here, so it's not a purely middle east thing.

I think Syria is a pretty good example of a case of the US saying, "No, you solve your own problems." and largely that's the attitude we need. When we wage war, even small ones it needs to be for purely selfish reasons. Let the civil wars of countries play themselves out. Those confrontations are none of our concern, unless they'd like to make a purchase; and then sell away. Not. our. problem. We can establish an embassy when the dust settles and deal with what comes up.
TLDR: Feth them all.

The term is "better the Devil you know" when it comes to foreign policy and nothing is ever ideal in the real world so we need to deal with shades of grey, you may back a winner, or a loser, or a winner who is corrupt, evil or a disaster but is it your countries interest? If you gain out of it, then it's in the National interest.

Much as I want to agree with you, that's what leads to 9/11. Disengaging, and becoming isolationist, leaves your enemies to fester, plan and coordinate action against you in foreign Countries, then they bring the conflict to your shores again. If you are happy with that great, but I'm willing to bet there is a significant portion of the US that doesn't want September 11 becoming a once a decade or every 3-4 years event.

@Shurmagoratha It's not Xenophobic to point out that the Middle East is a hot bed of Violence it's been like that for Millenia. As a Veteran of Iraq, all the promises of the people, of the Governments (British, US, UN, Iraq's Own elected officials) all come to nothing because you simply cannot impose the rule of law. The tribal complications and grudges just come to the surface and destablise any peace. Then add in extremism it gets much worse. The exact same will happen in Afgahnistan post 2014, and all the blood and treasure to stabilise a Country would have been a waste.

oh and Writing TL: DR makes you look ignorant, especially if you take the time to make a post about it.

 mwnciboo wrote:

 AustonT wrote:

Well lets have a dose of honesty first. How many of those dictators did we overtly or covertly put into power in the first place? Saddam certainly, Mubarak I think, and lets think back to Iran. The Shah was kind of a gak head and the reactionary regime that replaced him is at least partially our responsibility. The US does not have a good track record abroad of picking good or even decent foriegn leaders, and we'd be better served if we didnt try.

That said the world community, and even some loud squakers domestically , demand action on our part when things fall apart. Its the same voices the denounce the US for interfering later. We are talking your friends and neighbors in the Eurozone here, so it's not a purely middle east thing.

I think Syria is a pretty good example of a case of the US saying, "No, you solve your own problems." and largely that's the attitude we need. When we wage war, even small ones it needs to be for purely selfish reasons. Let the civil wars of countries play themselves out. Those confrontations are none of our concern, unless they'd like to make a purchase; and then sell away. Not. our. problem. We can establish an embassy when the dust settles and deal with what comes up.
TLDR: Feth them all.

The term is "better the Devil you know" when it comes to foreign policy and nothing is ever ideal in the real world so we need to deal with shades of grey, you may back a winner, or a loser, or a winner who is corrupt, evil or a disaster but is it your countries interest? If you gain out of it, then it's in the National interest.

Much as I want to agree with you, that's what leads to 9/11. Disengaging, and becoming isolationist, leaves your enemies to fester, plan and coordinate action against you in foreign Countries, then they bring the conflict to your shores again. If you are happy with that great, but I'm willing to bet there is a significant portion of the US that doesn't want September 11 becoming a once a decade or every 3-4 years event.

It's not Xenophobic to point out that the Middle East is a hot bed of Violence. As a Veteran of Iraq, all the promises of the people, of the Governments (British, US, UN, Iraq's Own elected officials) all come to nothing because you simply cannot impose the rule of law. The tribal complications and grudges just come to the surface and destablise any peace. Then add in extremism it gets much worse.

The exact same will happen in Afgahnistan post 2014, and all the blood and treasure to stabilise a Country would have been a waste.

If we were totally disengaged, they wouldn't be our enemies, nor would they have the ability to attack us.

No you disengaging with them, doesn't mean Mutual disengagement, it means you walking from the table.

If you disengage from an Enemy you are conceding the field, that doesn't make you friends all of a sudden or mean that the Enemy will not pursue you by any means possible.

Disengagement as of part of Isolationism is not good for Trade or for your relationships globally.

 mwnciboo wrote:
No you disengaging with them, doesn't mean Mutual disengagement, it means you walking from the table.

If you disengage from an Enemy you are conceding the field, that doesn't make you friends all of a sudden or mean that the Enemy will not pursue you by any means possible.

Disengagement as of part of Isolationism is not good for Trade or for your relationships globally.

The Middle East is not our enemy. Islam is not our enemy.
By leaving everything but trading relationships there is no impetus to attack us. We've done this before. There have been many times and many regions where the US tended to stay out. Its appropriate to do the same here.

Further its a general policy, not just ME specific. Active neutrality will help do wonders for the constant wars.
We've had troops in harm's way in the ME since before my children were born. The Boy is about to finish high school. Think about that. Enough already.

And if someone attacks us after, reply with a response that could only best be described as "biblical."

But the damage is done, they don't forgive or forget. The grudges will last hundreds of Years, active engagement and sorting out the issues Middle East Peace process would unlock alot of this and save someone hitting the "Biblical" Nuke Button, which by the way soon could be in the hands of Iran.

To turn your back on the world and looking after yourselves, much as I like the sentiment, will not protect you from the retribution, justified or not, that will come to you from the numerous enemies, perceived or not, you have globally.

Look at Europe now, post WWII and post Cold War the US has built a stable and peaceful Europe within 60 years after thousands of years of us fighting. You cannot hide from the world, you are Pre-eminent and therefore looked upto, respected, loved, valued, loathed and despised by others depending on our relationship with the US.

 Frazzled wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
No you disengaging with them, doesn't mean Mutual disengagement, it means you walking from the table.

If you disengage from an Enemy you are conceding the field, that doesn't make you friends all of a sudden or mean that the Enemy will not pursue you by any means possible.

Disengagement as of part of Isolationism is not good for Trade or for your relationships globally.

The Middle East is not our enemy. Islam is not our enemy.
By leaving everything but trading relationships there is no impetus to attack us. We've done this before. There have been many times and many regions where the US tended to stay out. Its appropriate to do the same here.

Further its a general policy, not just ME specific. Active neutrality will help do wonders for the constant wars.
We've had troops in harm's way in the ME since before my children were born. The Boy is about to finish high school. Think about that. Enough already.

And if someone attacks us after, reply with a response that could only best be described as "biblical."

^^Exalted.

Its pretty much time for the western countries to stop meddling in other peoples affairs, be it Africa, the Middle East or even South America!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mwnciboo wrote:
But the damage is done, they don't forgive or forget. The grudges will last hundreds of Years, active engagement and sorting out the issues Middle East Peace process would unlock alot of this and save someone hitting the "Biblical" Nuke Button, which by the way is soon could be in the hands of Iran.

To turn your back on the world and looking after yourselves, much as I like the sentiment, will not protect you from the retribution, perceived or not, justified or not, will come to you.

Look at Europe now, post WWII and post Cold War the US has built a stable and peaceful Europe within 60 years after thousands of years of us fighting.

WHAAA?

The USA has as much responsibility in the current lack of wars in Europe as they do in the current lack of wars in South America: i.e. none!

Really by forming NATO to counter the WARSAW PACT?

By Saving us in the UK from starvation and giving us the means to fight, stopping Capitulation in the face of the NAZI's during WWII?

By Sending troops across to France in WW2 and WW1? By spreading NATO Partner Countries Post Cold War? Kosovo conflict and the former Yugoslavia?

Have you read any history? Specifically the US impact on Europe in the last 100 years. The US has massively influenced Europe.

Ask yourself this :-

How many European Countries have Military Bases in the USA?

How many European Countries have US Military Bases in them?

You are so Influential you do not even realise it.

I think during the past 11 years, the reputation of Islam and Muslims in the West has been torn down and left in shambles. That is an important point that should be included in your list.

 AustonT wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:


When is the middle East going to stop blaming the USA for absolutely everything?

"We are being killed by Dictator X, please America help us"

After a period the USA relents and helps

5 minutes later

"You Americans are all Infidels, die infidels"

It's like diplomatic schizophrenia.

Well lets have a dose of honesty first. How many of those dictators did we overtly or covertly put into power in the first place? Saddam certainly, Mubarak I think, and lets think back to Iran. The Shah was kind of a gak head and the reactionary regime that replaced him is at least partially our responsibility. The US does not have a good track record abroad of picking good or even decent foriegn leaders, and we'd be better served if we didnt try.

That said the world community, and even some loud squakers domestically , demand action on our part when things fall apart. Its the same voices the denounce the US for interfering later. We are talking your friends and neighbors in the Eurozone here, so it's not a purely middle east thing.

I think Syria is a pretty good example of a case of the US saying, "No, you solve your own problems." and largely that's the attitude we need. When we wage war, even small ones it needs to be for purely selfish reasons. Let the civil wars of countries play themselves out. Those confrontations are none of our concern, unless they'd like to make a purchase; and then sell away. Not. our. problem. We can establish an embassy when the dust settles and deal with what comes up.
TLDR: Feth them all.

And the CIA trained bin laden on how to be a terrorist against the Russians.

 CuddlySquig wrote:
I think during the past 11 years, the reputation of Islam and Muslims in the West has been torn down and left in shambles. That is an important point that should be included in your list.

The reputation before that wasn't great, the "west" is a somewhat homogeneous block of developed christian countries that has never looked favorably on different cultural values. What's changed significantly since 9/11 is the militancy north Americans have towards the Islamic world and the economic and cultural scapegoating the Eurozone has pinned on them. North Africa and the Middle east has been a region composed of totalitarian dictatorships and failed states for decades, they haven't really changed. A lot of the wests increasing cultural xenophobia can be pinned on a sense of decline in relative western power and supremacy of views as compared to the rest of the world.

 mwnciboo wrote:
But the damage is done, they don't forgive or forget. The grudges will last hundreds of Years, active engagement and sorting out the issues Middle East Peace process would unlock alot of this and save someone hitting the "Biblical" Nuke Button, which by the way soon could be in the hands of Iran.

To turn your back on the world and looking after yourselves, much as I like the sentiment, will not protect you from the retribution, justified or not, that will come to you from the numerous enemies, perceived or not, you have globally.

Look at Europe now, post WWII and post Cold War the US has built a stable and peaceful Europe within 60 years after thousands of years of us fighting. You cannot hide from the world, you are Pre-eminent and therefore looked upto, respected, loved, valued, loathed and despised by others depending on our relationship with the US.

The ME has never been "sorted out." It won't be in our lifetimes.
They can't touch us if we are not there.

 Frazzled wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
But the damage is done, they don't forgive or forget. The grudges will last hundreds of Years, active engagement and sorting out the issues Middle East Peace process would unlock alot of this and save someone hitting the "Biblical" Nuke Button, which by the way soon could be in the hands of Iran.

To turn your back on the world and looking after yourselves, much as I like the sentiment, will not protect you from the retribution, justified or not, that will come to you from the numerous enemies, perceived or not, you have globally.

Look at Europe now, post WWII and post Cold War the US has built a stable and peaceful Europe within 60 years after thousands of years of us fighting. You cannot hide from the world, you are Pre-eminent and therefore looked upto, respected, loved, valued, loathed and despised by others depending on our relationship with the US.

The ME has never been "sorted out." It won't be in our lifetimes.
They can't touch us if we are not there.

They kinda can...
I mean that's essentially what 9/11 was wasn't it?

mwnciboo wrote:

 AustonT wrote:

FETH THEM ALL.
Well lets have a dose of honesty first. How many of those dictators did we overtly or covertly put into power in the first place? Saddam certainly, Mubarak I think, and lets think back to Iran. The Shah was kind of a gak head and the reactionary regime that replaced him is at least partially our responsibility. The US does not have a good track record abroad of picking good or even decent foriegn leaders, and we'd be better served if we didnt try.

That said the world community, and even some loud squakers domestically , demand action on our part when things fall apart. Its the same voices the denounce the US for interfering later. We are talking your friends and neighbors in the Eurozone here, so it's not a purely middle east thing.

I think Syria is a pretty good example of a case of the US saying, "No, you solve your own problems." and largely that's the attitude we need. When we wage war, even small ones it needs to be for purely selfish reasons. Let the civil wars of countries play themselves out. Those confrontations are none of our concern, unless they'd like to make a purchase; and then sell away. Not. our. problem. We can establish an embassy when the dust settles and deal with what comes up.

The term is "better the Devil you know" when it comes to foreign policy and nothing is ever ideal in the real world so we need to deal with shades of grey, you may back a winner, or a loser, or a winner who is corrupt, evil or a disaster but is it your countries interest? If you gain out of it, then it's in the National interest.

Much as I want to agree with you, that's what leads to 9/11. Disengaging, and becoming isolationist, leaves your enemies to fester, plan and coordinate action against you in foreign Countries, then they bring the conflict to your shores again. If you are happy with that great, but I'm willing to bet there is a significant portion of the US that doesn't want September 11 becoming a once a decade or every 3-4 years event.

@Shurmagoratha It's not Xenophobic to point out that the Middle East is a hot bed of Violence it's been like that for Millenia. As a Veteran of Iraq, all the promises of the people, of the Governments (British, US, UN, Iraq's Own elected officials) all come to nothing because you simply cannot impose the rule of law. The tribal complications and grudges just come to the surface and destablise any peace. Then add in extremism it gets much worse. The exact same will happen in Afgahnistan post 2014, and all the blood and treasure to stabilise a Country would have been a waste.

oh and Writing TL: DR makes you look ignorant, especially if you take the time to make a post about it.

First and foremost I'd LOVE to hear how TLR makes me look ignorant by summing up my post, it's a common and useful tool used my newspapers everyday in the form of a headline, and a recognized tool of message boards...like this one. I've fixed my post to be more ignorant (by your definition).
Second. I don't see the part of my post where I said we should gut our intelligence gathering on conflicts and nations in civil war. We do it anyway, it's an implied task of our national and international intelligence agencies. Intelligence failures happen, and the 9/11 attacks while tragic are not an isolated incident. The WTC was bombed in 1993, Oklahoma City in 95, the East Africa Embassies bombings in 98, 9/11 in 2001 these are just a few in the litany of terrorism incidents in and against the US. If anything we are either long overdue unless you count shooting sprees. Your point is invalid at best. terrorism is not new, nor did terrorist attacks begin in 2001. Preventing all acts of terror is impossible, whether we go to other countries or not to stir the gak and spend our money and lives is not.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 AustonT wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:


When is the middle East going to stop blaming the USA for absolutely everything?

"We are being killed by Dictator X, please America help us"

After a period the USA relents and helps

5 minutes later

"You Americans are all Infidels, die infidels"

It's like diplomatic schizophrenia.

Well lets have a dose of honesty first. How many of those dictators did we overtly or covertly put into power in the first place? Saddam certainly, Mubarak I think, and lets think back to Iran. The Shah was kind of a gak head and the reactionary regime that replaced him is at least partially our responsibility. The US does not have a good track record abroad of picking good or even decent foriegn leaders, and we'd be better served if we didnt try.

That said the world community, and even some loud squakers domestically , demand action on our part when things fall apart. Its the same voices the denounce the US for interfering later. We are talking your friends and neighbors in the Eurozone here, so it's not a purely middle east thing.

I think Syria is a pretty good example of a case of the US saying, "No, you solve your own problems." and largely that's the attitude we need. When we wage war, even small ones it needs to be for purely selfish reasons. Let the civil wars of countries play themselves out. Those confrontations are none of our concern, unless they'd like to make a purchase; and then sell away. Not. our. problem. We can establish an embassy when the dust settles and deal with what comes up.
TLDR: Feth them all.

And the CIA trained bin laden on how to be a terrorist against the Russians.

Yeah, that's kind of the point.

We've hated muslims ever since they crawled out of the woodwork and gobbled up the fertile crescent, took jerusalem, took the Byzantine empire and claimed northern africa as their own. After that, we started to realize that they were a serious collective of people, so of course, we hated them, and then the crusades, which did nothing.

Seems like muslims in america live relatively well. Quite a number of them went to my high school. They were all nice people. It's a funny demographic, because Muslim doesn't necessarily imply middle-eastern, which surprises people...There's asian muslims, african muslims, european muslims... even some hispanic muslims.

Also, from a pragmatic point of view, how did islam even catch on? In practice, tradition and ceremony, it's very similar to Judaism. Lots of rules about what you can and can't do. Lots of values and morals instilled, lots of obligations and such... In contrast, Christianity is easy. Just go to church once a week, pay a little tithe and obey 10 rules, and you're good.

 mwnciboo wrote:
Look at Europe now, post WWII and post Cold War the US has built a stable and peaceful Europe within 60 years after thousands of years of us fighting. You cannot hide from the world, you are Pre-eminent and therefore looked upto, respected, loved, valued, loathed and despised by others depending on our relationship with the US.

that. Let China do it.

note I'm not saying disengage in diplomacy to help peacefully resolve dispute-just like Switzerland does, or trade. I'm saying no more government support and no more military. You're on your own. Do what you want in your own turf. We won't stop you and we won't help you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 purplefood wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
But the damage is done, they don't forgive or forget. The grudges will last hundreds of Years, active engagement and sorting out the issues Middle East Peace process would unlock alot of this and save someone hitting the "Biblical" Nuke Button, which by the way soon could be in the hands of Iran.

To turn your back on the world and looking after yourselves, much as I like the sentiment, will not protect you from the retribution, justified or not, that will come to you from the numerous enemies, perceived or not, you have globally.

Look at Europe now, post WWII and post Cold War the US has built a stable and peaceful Europe within 60 years after thousands of years of us fighting. You cannot hide from the world, you are Pre-eminent and therefore looked upto, respected, loved, valued, loathed and despised by others depending on our relationship with the US.

The ME has never been "sorted out." It won't be in our lifetimes.
They can't touch us if we are not there.

They kinda can...
I mean that's essentially what 9/11 was wasn't it?

Thats why good border security will stop that.

 mwnciboo wrote:
Really by forming NATO to counter the WARSAW PACT?

By Saving us in the UK from starvation and giving us the means to fight, stopping Capitulation in the face of the NAZI's during WWII?

By Sending troops across to France in WW2 and WW1? By spreading NATO Partner Countries Post Cold War? Kosovo conflict and the former Yugoslavia?

Have you read any history? Specifically the US impact on Europe in the last 100 years. The US has massively influenced Europe.

Ask yourself this :-

How many European Countries have Military Bases in the USA?

How many European Countries have US Military Bases in them?

You are so Influential you do not even realise it.

What does any of that has to do with political stability post-WW2? Wasn't that what you were talking about?

 mwnciboo wrote:

Look at Europe now, post WWII and post Cold War the US has built a stable and peaceful Europe within 60 years after thousands of years of us fighting. You cannot hide from the world, you are Pre-eminent and therefore looked upto, respected, loved, valued, loathed and despised by others depending on our relationship with the US.

Why yes, it seems that you were talking about the past 60 years alone...

No one is denying the USA's importance in winning WW2. But claiming that they've "built a stable and peaceful Europe within 60 years" is ridiculously understating the achievements of the European people as a whole, in the post-WW2 period. They've built nothing, they provided the financial aid necessary (for a profit, naturally), for Europe to rebuild itself.

I think all the US troops that were in Europe after the end of the war helped keep the entire damn continent from descending into violence. Civil wars could have been a real possibility in several countries where people who would otherwise have been enemies of the state were not only armed but well trained and experienced fighters by the end of the war.

 Frazzled wrote:

We've had troops in harm's way in the ME since before my children were born. The Boy is about to finish high school. Think about that. Enough already.

And if someone attacks us after, reply with a response that could only best be described as "biblical."

Isn't that kind of why you've had troops in the ME since before your children were born?

 purplefood wrote:
I think all the US troops that were in Europe after the end of the war helped keep the entire damn continent from descending into violence. Civil wars could have been a real possibility in several countries where people who would otherwise have been enemies of the state were not only armed but well trained and experienced fighters by the end of the war.

Agreed. Troops and the Marshall Plan especially in the first decade. Later a common foe helped too. After that, once Europe started getting its act back together everyone was so traumatized from WWII plus making all that money that there's no need for it.
Of course, then the Balkans blew up and the USSR did invade two countries (Hungary, Czech). Plus Spain, Italy, and Greece had nice little domestic wars going on.

Withdraw all US presence then from Europe and the Middle East. Can't really withdraw from South Korea since technically we're still at war with North Korea. 2ID is no longer though a 110% division. Let europe pick up the slack for Bosnia and Kosovo rotations. Remove ourselves from the Sinai rotation and let the Middle East handle there own affairs. Let Israel know their country protection is in their hands. Hope Iran don't start sinking ships in the 2 mile stretch of water in the Straight of Homuz till we get Canada oil into operation (Keystone Pipeline). Hope Egypt don't close the Suez Canal to. Eventually the US hate will probaly be transfered to the Russians and/or China as they try to influence them. Sit back and watch it all go up in flames on the TV drinking coffee.

Bran Dawri wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

We've had troops in harm's way in the ME since before my children were born. The Boy is about to finish high school. Think about that. Enough already.

And if someone attacks us after, reply with a response that could only best be described as "biblical."

Isn't that kind of why you've had troops in the ME since before your children were born?

What? You're not making sense.

We should also look at what has changed in first world countries.

9/11 has triggered a recurring theme in politics of sacrificing freedoms in the name of security. Just look at airports for example.

 Jihadin wrote:
Withdraw all US presence then from Europe and the Middle East. Can't really withdraw from South Korea since technically we're still at war with North Korea. 2ID is no longer though a 110% division. Let europe pick up the slack for Bosnia and Kosovo rotations. Remove ourselves from the Sinai rotation and let the Middle East handle there own affairs. Let Israel know their country protection is in their hands. Hope Iran don't start sinking ships in the 2 mile stretch of water in the Straight of Homuz till we get Canada oil into operation (Keystone Pipeline). Hope Egypt don't close the Suez Canal to. Eventually the US hate will probaly be transfered to the Russians and/or China as they try to influence them. Sit back and watch it all go up in flames on the TV drinking coffee.

This I can approve!

Especially the coffee part...

 Jihadin wrote:
Hope Iran don't start sinking ships in the 2 mile stretch of water in the Straight of Homuz till we get Canada oil into operation (Keystone Pipeline).

Lets be honest: not the biggest concern. I mean it's a big deal, but we can make it without ME oil.

 Jihadin wrote:
Withdraw all US presence then from Europe and the Middle East.

Agreed

Can't really withdraw from South Korea since technically we're still at war with North Korea.

Sure we can.
1) Announce that we are leaving in 2013.
2) Announce we've sold SK 50 nukes which are already in country.

Iran close the Straight of Homux. Not a US issue. Egypt close the Suez Canal. Not a US issue. Iran took over Iraq and Afghaanistan (after 2014) Not a US issue. Some idioit country attack Israel and Israel gains half a country. Not a US issue. Syria unleashes chemical weapons. Not a US issue and keep it within the Syria. Saudi and Kuwait wants to do business with the US in oil. Nope to much american interest would be invested in both country and its cheaper from Canada. UN wants to deploy troops to areas in the ME. US will no go or lead so have fun with that.....