40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

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**ClockworkZion**

Daedalus81 wrote:
One other added benefit of this drip-feed...

We're processing the rules day by day and building an understanding on how things work as compared to the old edition, in pieces.

You know what used to happen? We get the book when it comes out and people would freak the feth out, because they're constantly trying to reconcile the new to the old all at once.

There is still a fair amount of freaking out at the moment, but maybe by the time the books drop all the big freak outs will be out of people's systems.

**tneva82**

theocracity wrote:

Considering that you can always wound on a 6, and always fail an armor save on a 1, there's only so much Toughness and Armor you can give a titan (or a Land Raider) to protect it. Therefore most of the actual resilience of a Titan will likely be in its wound count. While Mortal wounds will obviously help do damage to titans, I don't think that they'll be in enough quantity to consider them more than a moderately useful tool to deal with them. You'd be better off with high strength weapons with good rend and multiple wounds, so that those attacks that do get through actually have an impact. [strike]I also think that D-strength weapons will be the only weapons that can deal multiple mortal wounds (beyond weird individual effects). [/strike] I forgot about Smite. Still I think it will be relatively rare.

This mortal wounds vs titan debate reminds me of the Lasgun vs Land Raider one. Just because you can kill a titan with a mandiblaster doesn't mean that they'll be the go-to weapon for the job.

Yes but point is it\s odd those are suddenly so powerful they ignore all those defences.

And if you want more realistic whatabout terminator armour_ The armour that\s supposed to be super tough being able to survive being stomped by a titan. Mandiblaster has never been described as effortlessly punching through even that. Squad of striking scorpions will be huge threat to terminators with just the mandiblaster...Nevermind real weapons.

Mandiblaster has been always fairly low level attack but one that strikes before enemy generally gets. IT\s support weapon rather than main weapon. How powerful scorpions themselves are if their support weapon is mortal wound level_

**Red Corsair**

Azreal13 wrote:
Lexicanum wrote:Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death. Because of the neural activation of the device the accuracy is often very high and it makes an effective pre-combat rank thinner.

So, a highly accurate, point blank, plasma shot.

Sounds exactly like the sort of thing that should be bypassing armour and hitting the vulnerable spots.

Plus, lets not pretend that Scorpions didn't really need something to help them out.

Right, so a plasma gun should inflict mortal wounds then since they are the same energy.

I don't have an issue if they cause a mortal wound on a to wound roll of 6, but otherwise have a strength and rend. I also don't mind them causing mortal wounds on a to hit roll of say a 6.

I do have a massive issue with them if they always trigger first and cause mortal wounds without requiring some conditional roll. If mortal wounds auto wound with no save then you have really stupid events occur like 8 scorpians charge or feth it, get charged by a dreadnought, who flat out dies before it gets a turn.

I am not gonna worry yet, since I would have to assume they balanced it somehow. But I do think the puff piece articles are causing more damage then hype by virtue of being so vague. I like the waling doom leak since it was a complete snippet, what I think is stupid is name dropping rules that have massive implications out of a responsible amount of context.

**tneva82**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Here's three Scrolls from AoS, showing different situations Mortal Wounds can crop up.

None of them as simply 'dish out Mortal Wounds'. All have some kind of trigger ability.

Mournfangs? If their save is a 6, they inflict a mortal wound on a unit with 1"

Archaic on? D3 if you select the Nurgle head after slaying an enemy model in combat.

Ironclad? If the enemy ends a charge move with 1", then on a 4+ they take D3 mortal wounds.

That's just the first three I could find with Mortal Wounds. Hardly a 'just inflict them' for any, no?

Which of them cares about opponents resiliency rather than just causing wound when hitting_

Any reason to believe that when you cause mortal wound in 40k you still have to roll to hit_ Or will it be like AOS if it triggers it punches straight through...

**Daedalus81**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
One other added benefit of this drip-feed...

We're processing the rules day by day and building an understanding on how things work as compared to the old edition, in pieces.

You know what used to happen? We get the book when it comes out and people would freak the feth out, because they're constantly trying to reconcile the new to the old all at once.

There is still a fair amount of freaking out at the moment, but maybe by the time the books drop all the big freak outs will be out of people's systems.

Yes, but at least we're able to do it one thing at a time.

**Wulfmar**

Anyone seen this yet?

Well, here it is anyway.

Wulfmar out

**Ghaz**

Wulfmar wrote:
Anyone seen this yet?

Well, here it is anyway.

Wulfmar out

Yes, we've been discussing it for the last nine pages...

**Daedalus81**

tneva82 wrote:
How powerful scorpions themselves are if their support weapon is mortal wound level_

Yea those shuriken pistols and chainswords are so scary right now that people are fielding them in droves. Imagine when they get something else, too!

**tneva82**

jamopower wrote:
"Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death."

Sounds suitable for mortal wounds for me.

@can inflict@ That\s not @I punch through whatever protection you have@ level of weapon.

Plasma gun fires pure...well plasma. Same as mandiblaster. Expecting plasma guns to be causing mortal wounds any time soon_

**nintura**

tneva82 wrote:
jamopower wrote:
"Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death."

Sounds suitable for mortal wounds for me.

@can inflict@ That\s not @I punch through whatever protection you have@ level of weapon.

Plasma gun fires pure...well plasma. Same as mandiblaster. Expecting plasma guns to be causing mortal wounds any time soon_

Our plasma technology is thousands of years ahead of your mon'keigh

**theocracity**

tneva82 wrote:
theocracity wrote:

Considering that you can always wound on a 6, and always fail an armor save on a 1, there's only so much Toughness and Armor you can give a titan (or a Land Raider) to protect it. Therefore most of the actual resilience of a Titan will likely be in its wound count. While Mortal wounds will obviously help do damage to titans, I don't think that they'll be in enough quantity to consider them more than a moderately useful tool to deal with them. You'd be better off with high strength weapons with good rend and multiple wounds, so that those attacks that do get through actually have an impact. [strike]I also think that D-strength weapons will be the only weapons that can deal multiple mortal wounds (beyond weird individual effects). [/strike] I forgot about Smite. Still I think it will be relatively rare.

This mortal wounds vs titan debate reminds me of the Lasgun vs Land Raider one. Just because you can kill a titan with a mandiblaster doesn't mean that they'll be the go-to weapon for the job.

Yes but point is it\s odd those are suddenly so powerful they ignore all those defences.

And if you want more realistic whatabout terminator armour_ The armour that\s supposed to be super tough being able to survive being stomped by a titan. Mandiblaster has never been described as effortlessly punching through even that. Squad of striking scorpions will be huge threat to terminators with just the mandiblaster...Nevermind real weapons.

Mandiblaster has been always fairly low level attack but one that strikes before enemy generally gets. IT\s support weapon rather than main weapon. How powerful scorpions themselves are if their support weapon is mortal wound level_

I'm pretty sure that Terminators have always been afraid of Scorpions due to their exarch's high-Initiative powerfist attacks. I don't see too much of an issue if scorpions continue to be a melee can-opener unit.

A lot depends on how exactly the mandiblasters trigger. With alternating unit activation and chargers striking first, it makes a difference when they activate in a combat.

**str00dles1**

gnome_idea_what wrote:
The "we can't show you everything, but we'll give you a taste of what's happening and hint at stuff coming later!" Attitude is really annoying, while I know it's designed to stir up hype it just ends up creating "technically not baseless but functionally baseless" speculation and gets annoying with all the waiting. It'll be really funny if when we have enough info and leaks and start piecing the codexes together a few weeks from launch, and they're still hyping like the new edition is a year away. The tiny amount of info every day feels like the community is on an I.V drip, and I wish that we'd get enough crunch to actually do something with in weekly dumps and the hyperbole and hype in avoidable daily posts. Or they could run an ARG or something, that way it would feel like we're actively participating in discovering the new rules.

The only thing I would hope for is they release stats and such a week or two ahead of the release so you know what to buy. That's what I hate. People now are not buying or very much slowing down any purchases because we don't know anything besides a few marines and part of an elder. Not even asking for rules, just stats to see weapons and such. I cant see how they think its a good business process to release no info really so people wont buy your product. Does only effect new players though or people looking to buy new armies. I have been buying admech and buying/painting them up for 8th but im purely guessing on weapon loadouts.

**tneva82**

Daedalus81 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
How powerful scorpions themselves are if their support weapon is mortal wound level_

Yea those shuriken pistols and chainswords are so scary right now that people are fielding them in droves. Imagine when they get something else, too!

But those are the main tool of trade. Mandiblaster has systematically been described as support system for them. Not the main weapon.

Why change even background needlessly_ There\s plenty of ways to make scorpions worth it without changing mandiblaster into some super armour puncher that ignores toughness and armour at will munching terminators before scorpions even get to attack.

Why not make scorpions fit existing fluff but in efficient way_ That\s like making assault marines into super shooty unit that is at best in assault. Sure can it be made balancedly_ Yes. But it also ignores like 30 years of existing background...

If somebody claims they need this to be worth it they are flat out wrong. There\s plenty of ways to make them worth it while making them truthful to existing fluff. You dont\ have to reinvent units every time you release new rules for them. Tweak them to be more balanced within fluff sure. Reinventing wheel is just silly.

**frozenwastes**

Daedalus81 wrote:
You can dig on it all you want, but paying for your special weapons will always be more balanced than not - especially when a whole unit of Rubrics can take flamers for free otherwise.

No argument here. If someone wants to take all the strongest stuff in order to get the most powerful list possible in a game using Power, then they should probably be doing Matched Play anyway. It'll suit their approach to the game better than Open or Narrative. And no one who is actually into Open or Narrative really wants someone around who is using the less exact system to intentionally break things. So I also think having the two points systems will let people get on the same page faster in terms of "ways to play."

It's just been 33 years since points were introduced to the Warhammer games and you'd think people would have developed an awareness of their limitations by now.

**tneva82**

theocracity wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Terminators have always been afraid of Scorpions due to their exarch's high-Initiative powerfist attacks. I don't see too much of an issue if scorpions continue to be a melee can-opener unit.

YEs. High initiave powerfist attack. Which might not even get to attack anymore due to mortal wounds. As it is getting hit by that powerfist will be less painful for the terminator than getting hit by mandiblaster...

Problem isn\t scorpions munching terminator. Problem is their support gear doing that. It\s never been described as weapon making mockery of toughest protection at will. In 7 editions never been that. Why now_ Balance_ You can make scorpions worth it without that.

**ClockworkZion**

nintura wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
jamopower wrote:
"Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death."

Sounds suitable for mortal wounds for me.

@can inflict@ That\s not @I punch through whatever protection you have@ level of weapon.

Plasma gun fires pure...well plasma. Same as mandiblaster. Expecting plasma guns to be causing mortal wounds any time soon_

Our plasma technology is thousands of years ahead of your mon'keigh

Most people try improving their technology instead of fielding antiques.

**jamopower**

tneva82 wrote:
jamopower wrote:
"Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death."

Sounds suitable for mortal wounds for me.

@can inflict@ That\s not @I punch through whatever protection you have@ level of weapon.

Plasma gun fires pure...well plasma. Same as mandiblaster. Expecting plasma guns to be causing mortal wounds any time soon_

So? Probably it will be an Attack that causes mortal wounds on sixes to hit or something along those lines.

**spiralingcadaver**

Spoiler:

Oh, GW, it really wouldn't be you if your rules organization made any sense

:

Rule 1: Defense. Also, shooting.

Rule 2: Other defense.

That totally follows any coherent pattern of organization. Oh, wait, no, the other one.

Also, interesting to see how they mixed up the force (and I assume power) weapon varieties' AP

**nintura**

ClockworkZion wrote:
nintura wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
jamopower wrote:
"Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death."

Sounds suitable for mortal wounds for me.

@can inflict@ That\s not @I punch through whatever protection you have@ level of weapon.

Plasma gun fires pure...well plasma. Same as mandiblaster. Expecting plasma guns to be causing mortal wounds any time soon_

Our plasma technology is thousands of years ahead of your mon'keigh

Most people try improving their technology instead of fielding antiques.

Have you read anything regarding your empire? You worship old weapons as if they were religious artifacts, and your tech has only been going down for the last 10k years. Happens when you fear science and technological advancement. No wonder your plasma sucks.

**theocracity**

tneva82 wrote:
theocracity wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Terminators have always been afraid of Scorpions due to their exarch's high-Initiative powerfist attacks. I don't see too much of an issue if scorpions continue to be a melee can-opener unit.

YEs. High initiave powerfist attack. Which might not even get to attack anymore due to mortal wounds. As it is getting hit by that powerfist will be less painful for the terminator than getting hit by mandiblaster...

Problem isn\t scorpions munching terminator. Problem is their support gear doing that. It\s never been described as weapon making mockery of toughest protection at will. In 7 editions never been that. Why now_ Balance_ You can make scorpions worth it without that.

I mean, if the Claw has multiple attacks, -3 AP, extra strength and / or multiple wounds it's still likely to do more damage to a 2-wound terminator than a 1-wound mortal hit. It does depend on the exact stats but I don't think it'll be a wet noodle.

I'm just not particularly bothered if a weapon that sounds really deadly and precise gets that kind of a buff, so the background implications don't worry me too much. I think it'll mostly come out in the wash, game-wise.

**Red Corsair**

ClockworkZion wrote:
nintura wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
jamopower wrote:
"Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death."

Sounds suitable for mortal wounds for me.

@can inflict@ That\s not @I punch through whatever protection you have@ level of weapon.

Plasma gun fires pure...well plasma. Same as mandiblaster. Expecting plasma guns to be causing mortal wounds any time soon_

Our plasma technology is thousands of years ahead of your mon'keigh

Most people try improving their technology instead of fielding antiques.

Not to mention using the fluff to justify poor rules is beyond silly. EVERYTHING in the background reads like some sort of fan fetish fiction, I mean have you guys ever read the description of the standard combat knife in 40k?

As an aside, I am actually OK with the Avatar ignoring mortal wounds on a certain rule so long as they apply it to every demon, after all they are immortal right?

**ClockworkZion**

nintura wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
nintura wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
jamopower wrote:
"Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death."

Sounds suitable for mortal wounds for me.

@can inflict@ That\s not @I punch through whatever protection you have@ level of weapon.

Plasma gun fires pure...well plasma. Same as mandiblaster. Expecting plasma guns to be causing mortal wounds any time soon_

Our plasma technology is thousands of years ahead of your mon'keigh

Most people try improving their technology instead of fielding antiques.

Have you read anything regarding your empire? You worship old weapons as if they were religious artifacts, and your tech has only been going down for the last 10k years. Happens when you fear science and technological advancement. No wonder your plasma sucks.

The only thing my army worships is the God Emperor. Don't lump me in with those cog heads. They can't even be trusted to tune an Exorcist tank properly.

**tneva82**

jamopower wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
jamopower wrote:
"Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death."

Sounds suitable for mortal wounds for me.

@can inflict@ That\s not @I punch through whatever protection you have@ level of weapon.

Plasma gun fires pure...well plasma. Same as mandiblaster. Expecting plasma guns to be causing mortal wounds any time soon_

So? Probably it will be an Attack that causes mortal wounds on sixes to hit or something along those lines.

So expecting to see plasma gun cause mortal wounds on 6\s to hit_

In 30 years mandiblaster has never been described as capable of hurting everything. It\s biggest advantage has been ability to hit enemy at close range before enemy gets to attack.

This new ability comes out of blue with no basis on existing background. Furthermore it isnt even really needed. There would be lots of ways to make scorpions threatening and worth their points without forgetting decades of background material.

If we want to redesign everything from scratch I say make assault marines jumpping shooty units.

**Daedalus81**

spiralingcadaver wrote:

Spoiler:

Oh, GW, it really wouldn't be you if your rules organization made any sense :

Rule 1: Defense. Also, shooting.

Rule 2: Other defense.

That totally follows any coherent pattern of organization. Oh, wait, no, the other one.

Also, interesting to see how they mixed up the force (and I assume power) weapon varieties' AP

This is a great example on how someone's perspective warps how they process information.

Why do you think they got it wrong instead of they simply changed it so that they work differently?

**Red Corsair**

nintura wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
nintura wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
jamopower wrote:
"Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death."

Sounds suitable for mortal wounds for me.

@can inflict@ That\s not @I punch through whatever protection you have@ level of weapon.

Plasma gun fires pure...well plasma. Same as mandiblaster. Expecting plasma guns to be causing mortal wounds any time soon_

Our plasma technology is thousands of years ahead of your mon'keigh

Most people try improving their technology instead of fielding antiques.

Have you read anything regarding your empire? You worship old weapons as if they were religious artifacts, and your tech has only been going down for the last 10k years. Happens when you fear science and technological advancement. No wonder your plasma sucks.

And Ork technology works because they believe it will. Again, using the fluff to justify or invalidate every design element in any scenario is ridiculous.

**Daedalus81**

tneva82 wrote:
Furthermore it isnt even really needed. There would be lots of ways to make scorpions threatening and worth their points without forgetting decades of background material.

Says you. You have no idea how any of the eldar units function.

**macluvin**

Daedalus81 wrote:
frozenwastes wrote:
I love the power approach. It's a more honest points system that doesn't pretend to be anything more than a general guideline for building scenarios and setting up games.

The best thing is that having two systems means those who want to pretend their matched play points system will produce balanced results can continue to do so.

You can dig on it all you want, but paying for your special weapons will always be more balanced than not - especially when a whole unit of Rubrics can take flamers for free otherwise.

But its just a way to put the models you want to represent your army that is what you envision your army as and not supposed to be asystem for WAAC players to abuse. Besides, suppose that the power points cost might be adjusted according to how much the upgrades can boost them as well as naked? I think this will be a great edition to be honest. Maybe not at launch but I bet if people interact with Games Workshop CONSTRUCTIONALLY then we will one day have a near perfect system. Quit saying stuff sucks and they should feel bad its not helping anyone.

**tneva82**

theocracity wrote:
I mean, if the Claw has multiple attacks, -3 AP, extra strength and / or multiple wounds it's still likely to do more damage to a 2-wound terminator than a 1-wound mortal hit. It does depend on the exact stats but I don't think it'll be a wet noodle.

Claw is on one guy. Mandiblaster is on every guy and striking before claw gets to hit. There might not be much of terminators left for claw to kill...

**theocracity**

tneva82 wrote:
jamopower wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
jamopower wrote:
"Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death."

Sounds suitable for mortal wounds for me.

@can inflict@ That\s not @I punch through whatever protection you have@ level of weapon.

Plasma gun fires pure...well plasma. Same as mandiblaster. Expecting plasma guns to be causing mortal wounds any time soon_

So? Probably it will be an Attack that causes mortal wounds on sixes to hit or something along those lines.

So expecting to see plasma gun cause mortal wounds on 6\s to hit_

In 30 years mandiblaster has never been described as capable of hurting everything. It\s biggest advantage has been ability to hit enemy at close range before enemy gets to attack.

This new ability comes out of blue with no basis on existing background. Furthermore it isnt even really needed. There would be lots of ways to make scorpions threatening and worth their points without forgetting decades of background material.

If we want to redesign everything from scratch I say make assault marines jumpping shooty units.

There are only two immutable rules of 40k fluff: there are no female space Marines, and Mandiblasters are for tickling only.

tneva82 wrote:
theocracity wrote:
I mean, if the Claw has multiple attacks, -3 AP, extra strength and / or multiple wounds it's still likely to do more damage to a 2-wound terminator than a 1-wound mortal hit. It does depend on the exact stats but I don't think it'll be a wet noodle.

Claw is on one guy. Mandiblaster is on every guy and striking before claw gets to hit. There might not be much of terminators left for claw to kill...

As I said, we don't know when or how mandiblasters and their mortal wounds trigger. It's an important piece of information we need. And also, it doesn't necessarily change the unit's effective role or the way that it's dealt with.

**ClockworkZion**

theocracity wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
jamopower wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
jamopower wrote:
"Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death."

Sounds suitable for mortal wounds for me.

@can inflict@ That\s not @I punch through whatever protection you have@ level of weapon.

Plasma gun fires pure...well plasma. Same as mandiblaster. Expecting plasma guns to be causing mortal wounds any time soon_

So? Probably it will be an Attack that causes mortal wounds on sixes to hit or something along those lines.

So expecting to see plasma gun cause mortal wounds on 6\s to hit_

In 30 years mandiblaster has never been described as capable of hurting everything. It\s biggest advantage has been ability to hit enemy at close range before enemy gets to attack.

This new ability comes out of blue with no basis on existing background. Furthermore it isnt even really needed. There would be lots of ways to make scorpions threatening and worth their points without forgetting decades of background material.

If we want to redesign everything from scratch I say make assault marines jumpping shooty units.

There are only two immutable rules of 40k fluff: there are no female space Marines, and Mandiblasters are for tickling only.

I thought it was no female Space Marines and Lasguns double as flashlights.