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Having got a new job, and with minimal outgoings (at the moment) I went nuts and got a Skaven army off of eBay. As well add the odd bit from Warseer. Following that, I've come up with a Skaven list. As I've no experience in fantasy, could anyone who does help me out with it? Any major flaws etc

Grey Seer = 240
Chieftan - Bsb, shroud of dripping death = 92
Plague Priest - Furnace, flail, dispell scroll = 279
Engineer - level 1 upgrade, doomrocket = 95

30 Clanrats - sheilds, command = 155
30 Clanrats - sheilds, command, poison wind mortar = 220
30 Clanrats - sheilds, command, spears, ratling gun = 225
19 Stormvermin - champ, musician, shield = 167
6 giant rats & 1 packmaster = 26
6 giant rats & 1 packmaster = 26
6 giant rats & 1 packmaster = 26

25 monks - command = 200
4 Ratogres & 2 packmasters = 176

Hellpit - warpstone spikes

2175

So what are my thoughts behind this?

The 3 giant rat packs are basically so I can be a sneaky sod during deployment. Has my enemy set something up to counter a unit of mine in a place I don't like? Awesome, I should be able counter his counter now. Also, they should be helpful in breaking / holding up charging arcs and being character / engine hunters as well.

Monks to push furnace.

BsB in with stormvermin. These to go hunting.

Clanrats are my tar pits. Will probably put grey seer in one unit. Associated weapon teams will help kill a few enemy before the fight begins.

Rat ogres and hellpit to be my counter / flank attack units.

Engineer, to be an annoyance.

I've no kit on my grey seer as I've no idea what to put on him. Any suggestions? What do you think of my list?

Solid list, Engineers with doomrockets can be devastating, dunno if he has to be wizard since you got a grey seer and a plague priest.

No slaves??? Best thing in the book by far dont be a pussy get your self 3 blocks of 50 asap.

Clanrats are really only taken to unlock banner for blood and glory mission and to access weapon teams (ratling guns are also horrible)

Stromvermin are just plain bad and again only taken to unlock access to magic banners.

Rat orges are also horrible.

As for gear for the greyseer atleast a earthing rod and some form of ward save.

To be honest your whole list is really terrible but if your a good player you can make it work (its not 40k afterall) I suggest you check out some other list on dakka to get a feel for all the strong builds if thats what you are looking for.

 Jubear wrote:


To be honest your whole list is really terrible but if your a good player you can make it work

That has to be the least helpful line I have ever read. Any list can be worked if your a good player.

Do you have any reasons as to why rat ogres and ratling guns are terrible? What would you take in there in place?

Fra3ture wrote:

 Jubear wrote:


To be honest your whole list is really terrible but if your a good player you can make it work

That has to be the least helpful line I have ever read. Any list can be worked if your a good player.

Do you have any reasons as to why rat ogres and ratling guns are terrible? What would you take in there in place?

Ratling guns are too unreliable and over priced for what they do.

As for rat orgres lets start with frenzy combined with low leadership means they tend to get kited around the table meaning they have to stay in you seers Ld bubble. A complete lack of armor and average toughness means they die in droves to missile troops (even S3 bows) And last but not least they have handlers and thats never a good thing.

As for what to take in there place the skaven book is full of gold try gutter runners, WLCs, dual seers and of course more slaves.

Sorry If I came of as rude but to be fair you didnt provide a mission statement of what you wanted from the list, so for all I knew you were playing to a comp system or friendly games so I felt the need to clarify that skill is more imortent then list creation.

Thank you for that.

The rest of the other information you gave was useful. Just the last little bit left me all wtf?!?!

I run 2 units of 40 clanrats, 2 units of 40 slaves, 50 slaves and 10 stormvermin w/ the storm banner for a character bunker. This allows my BSB to take the standard of discipline. Jubear has a point. The most effective weapon teams are mortars and warpfire throwers. You need a level 1 with the condenser and doomrocket, a basic engineer with a brass orb. You seer needs a 4+ ward and an earthing rod.

OK. Thanks for the feedback. How about this?

Grey Seer: Talismen of Protection, Pistol = 263
Chieftan: BsB, Shroud of Dripping Death, Pistol = 100
Plague Priest: Furnace, Flail, Dispell = 279
Engineer: Level 1, DoomRocket, Pistol = 103

45 Slaves: sheilds, command = 118.5
45 Slaves: sheilds, command = 118.5
40 Clanrats: sheilds, spears, command, warpfire = 290
6 Giant Rats & packmaster = 26
6 Giant Rats & packmaster = 26
6 Giant Rats & packmaster = 26

40 Monks: command = 305
5 Rat Ogres & 3 Packmaster: 1 Master-Bred Ogre = 239

Hellpit & warpstone spikes = 250
Warpfire Cannon = 90

Managed to put another 50 bodies on the field. Better or worse?

This was made before I seen the last post. I'll add those in as well.

Drop the pistols off your characters. Drop the shroud of dripping death and replace it with the storm banner unless you take the stormvermin bunker. And get an earthing rod on your seer. Drop the spears off the clanrats. I never use plague monks. And rat ogres aren't worth taking unless you take the big block with squeel. And by big block i mean a horde of 12. The hellpit and WLC are fine. Although 2 Cannons and a Hellpit is the best choice out there for rares.

Of course with skaven the more bodies the better, but remember to keep there ranks and leadership up with your general and BSB otherwise the slaves will become a downfall. And then also use the spears as a form of bait. This all depends how you play it still ofc. But like all skaven lists. You have to keep your head about what you want to be the shield and which to be the sword. Or hammer and anvil which is commonly said.

A'ight everyone, one side, please:

- your Grey Seer is going to want as much protection as you can get him. I usually go with the Talisman of Preservation and a Dispel or Feedback scroll, depending on other characters. Skalm is also a great one.
Dual-Seers can be tough, but it's just So Many points. If you're not going for double-13th (26th?) in one phase with a Power Scroll, I'd say don't bother.

- Get your BSB some protection. He is, in many cases, more important than your general. Armour of Destiny is a good choice, or Foul Pendant/Charmed Shield. A halberd is worth the 2pts, by the way. S5 has given my BSB the extra oomph he needed to kill his way to safety many a game.

- I would recommend upgrading your Priest to a lvl2 and keeping your Engineer as lvl0. It's less points, gives you a bigger bonus to cast and dispel, and makes it more likely that you'll roll doubles in spell-selection.
I'd also get him some kind of protection. The Ironcurse Icon is too good to pass up.

- Slaves should not have shields, and here is why: Parry keeps 1 out of every 6 Slaves alive. Shields on 6 Slaves costs 3pts, where the one Slave who survived cost 2.5pts. You're better off with more bodies.

- Clanrats are usually better with shields or spears, not both (since shields loose their Parry with spears), but it's your call.

- to be fair, the Ratling Gun can pull it's weight. It is more reliable than the Mortar or the 'Thrower, and cheaper. It just does a lot less.

- 5 Giant Rats and a Packmaster is all you need for the "rat-dart" formation. Could save you 9pts, if you need them.

- for the record, Storm Vermin are actually a decent unit. You just have to (1) pick your fights and (2) field them in big enough units. Plus, the Stormbanner. It is stupid-good. Easy in the top 5 rules in the Skaven book.

- I would get those Plague Monks either the Shroud of Dripping Death or the Plague Banner.
The Plague Banner, coupled with Bless with Filth, is devastating. Allow me to illuminate:

30 Plague Monks (265pts with command and Banner) versus 30 Dwarf Hammerers (440pts, fully upgraded): 50 attacks need 4+, 25 hit, 8.3 poison. Re-roll for 12.5 more hits, 4.2 more poison. 37.5 hits need 5+ to wound, 12.5 wound. Re-roll for 8.3 more. After armour, that's 22.2 wounds.
Ka-bam.

- Gutter Runners are great for trouble-shooting. That is, if something is causing you trouble, they shoot it.
Note that Gutter Runners should be given slings and Poisoned Attacks. This does not make them better; it makes them worth using.

- People always hate on the poor R'ogresm, but I've had great success. You just need to take advantage of their strengths. They're fast, Immune to Psychology, and have 4 S5 attacks each (+1 stomp). Send them at some archers and watch them not care about the casualties, and then put a big ol' dent in the enemy. Odds are they won't survive the charge, but that's okay.
Units of 3 and 6 have worked very well for me. 2, in smaller games. And the Master-bred is a great buy.
Oh, and make sure they don't go up against hard-hitting units with higher Initiative, especially when you're fielding smaller units. That...doesn't work.

- The dreaded A-bomb is fantastically, wickedly, moronically good. The Warp Lightning Cannon is the best unit in the book (aside from an Engineer with the Rocket). Both great choices. The best, in fact.

Those're my two Warptokens.

That is fantastic information, thank you.

Just to clarify, the reason why my slaves have shields etc is because I've got around 100 IoB clanrats lol. But it shouldn't be a biggy as long as I tell my adversary that they, in fact, don't have shields.

I would advise on double units of 9 gutter runners with poison. That way you are likely to poison off war machines in 1 round, Depending on the comp you are playing to, either 2 WLCs and a hellpit, or if it is comped, a WLC and a hellpit. As for core, the most useful combination, I find, is 2 units of 40 clanrats with shields, a standard and a warpfire thrower(most useful team in the book), 2 units of 40 slaves with a musician, 50 slaves with a musician, 10 stormies with a standard, musician, warpfire thrower, and the storm banner. This is doubly useful as it either allows me to take the standard of discipline or take protective gear on my BSB. Otherwise, leave the stormvermin at home. Then take a Grey seer with a 4+ ward and a dispel scroll/earthing rod(we don't want him to cascade), an engineer with the condenser, doomrocket, and a level 1 upgrade, an engineer with the brass orb(which is bent), and a chieftain BSB. Then add 2 rat darts (5 giant rats and a packmaster) If you have points left over, throw in some random chaff drops. Make sure you outdeploy your opponent. I can't remember my previous skaven list but I think I had something like 13 drops.

The IoB pack is amazing, but yes, a bit tricky with the Slave-shield issue. I bought enough regular boxes of Clanrats/Slaves to ensure that at least 51% of each unit appears to be equipped as they actually are.
Unit spacers really help save on painting too, and they break up the spacing quite nicely.

I would never take larger units of Gutter Runners. Three units of 6 are better than two units of 9, by far. They can target an extra enemy, if necessary, and it takes 2 wounds to Panic 6 guys, rather than 3 wounds to Panic 9.

Also, while the Warpfire Thrower is the most potentially devastating, it is also the most expensive, the most limited in range, and the most unreliable. I've found that, 2 out of 3 times, you lose 70pts. But that one time, you'll net 250.

Warpsolution wrote:
I would never take larger units of Gutter Runners. Three units of 6 are better than two units of 9, by far. They can target an extra enemy, if necessary, and it takes 2 wounds to Panic 6 guys, rather than 3 wounds to Panic 9.

Although I can see where you're coming from. I would stick with the 2 units of 9. This is because; from a competitive standpoint, 2 units of 9 are better. As if you get turn 1, they can take off 2 warmachines. And seeing is that is what they're there for, I will stick with that principle.

Warpsolution wrote:
Also, while the Warpfire Thrower is the most potentially devastating, it is also the most expensive, the most limited in range, and the most unreliable. I've found that, 2 out of 3 times, you lose 70pts. But that one time, you'll net 250.

They are basically cheaper salamanders, and the most effective teams are the warpfire thrower, and poisoned wind mortar as they can both provide ways to deal with armoured targets. I would personally say take the warpfire throwers as my experience with them has been nothing short of phenominal.

@thedarkavenger:

Are you saying that 2 units of 9 are better because...you can get 18 shots on two targets versus 24 and 12? Explanations are useful.
Whether or not that is your point, it's a valid one that I had not considered. Still, that's assuming that you can find a big enough spot to drop two units of 9 Scouts and be able to shoot at said machines, and then it's still about 50-50 on each machine.
I'd still rather throw 24 shots at one and 12 at the other. Expecting the averages is fine--I usually do just that--but since they're such a fragile unit, I'd rather increase my chances of taking out at least war machine, for my A-bomb's sake.
It looks like two units of 9 still only have a 25% chance of Poison'ing two machines in one turn, anyway.

The most effective weapon teams are probably the 'Thrower and the Mortar, but I refuse to say the 'Gun is worthless. It is cheap, the most reliable, and can still crank out damage.
If your experience with Warpfire Throwers is phenomenal, then you are very luck. Their Misfire! chart is horrible, and even at ideal range (about 10", I believe), you can still over/under shoot for little effect.
But like I said, they are the most destructive, by far, when they hit home. A well-placed 'Thrower shot can easily outstrip a Warp Lightning Cannon for damage.

You say you like taking out warmachines for your A-bomb's sake, which is why units of 9 are the magic number for taking out war machines. Yes they are fragile, But if they take a war machine out on turn 1, they have done their job. And if the opponent wastes shooting on them, Yay. I can advance easier for a turn. The unit of 9 is the magic number because you should get 3 6's. And 2 units of 9 are cheaper than 3 units of 6.

And the warpfire throwers give you something to deal with armour. Which the ratling guns can't do. IIRC. I never said the ratling gun is worthless. I have been meaning to try it. Just not in a competitive environment.

1. How are two units of 9 Gutter Runners cheaper than three units of 6?

2. 9 gives you, on average, 3 6's, exactly. No more, no less. So you've basically got a 50% of failure (ignoring the odds of hits that result in a 6 to wound).
If this happens (and it'll happen about 50% of the time), you've got to shoot at it with the other. At this point, you'd have been better served by two units of 6.

I think it's an interesting point, but at 18pts a piece, I'm going to try and get as much use out of my 'Runners as I can.
I guess the difference is: two units of 9 have a high chance of destroying two enemy war machines, where three of 6 have a better chance at one, with a higher damage/target ratio over all. It really is a toss-up; both involve hoping for one scenario or another. Just a matter of which you want to gamble on. I do not, however, think that either are The choice.

As far as Ratling Guns go, allow me to clarify. I'm not claiming you said this or that, just that I've heard a lot of Ratling Gun hate, and I'm not quite in agreement (they're not great, though).
The Doomflayer, on the otherhand, is awful 90% of the time.