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With the new edition, and a few builds i have seen (and a list i am building), i wanted to get Dakka's opinion on which is better.

So, i quick comparison

Marneus

Marneus Calgar - God of War, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, etc. etc.

Pts Lysander +65
Armor 2+ 4++
Attacks 4+1 Base+ additional CC
Str 8
Eternal Warrior w/ 4 wounds
AP 2 storm bolter
Bombardment
Teleport homer
Can re-roll his own to wound rolls
Army can auto fail/pass morale


Lysander - i.e., The guy who has been around since the 3rd ed. Codex as a Scout, etc. etc.

Pts Base pts (i don't want to give the points here)
Armor 2+ 3++
Attacks 3 Base
Str 10 (concussive and MC hammer)
Eternal Warrior with 4 wounds
no guns
squad (e.g. stearnguard) attached to can re-roll misses with bolters
Army is stubborn



Basically, the way i see it, Marneus is better offensively, with 2 more attacks and reroll failed to wound rolls (also on shots), while Lysander is better taking hits because of the 3++ save.

The big question then, is the stubborn vs. auto fail pass better. I can see a lot of situations, especially in 6th ed, where auto fail, fall back helps a lot...e.g., a tactical squad that managed to survive a round of close combat with some heavy hitters, fail, fall back, shoot the opponent with your army.

Both are capable of being the lead in a unit taking hits - again, Lysander is slightly better at taking las cannons and metlas, but bother are still rock solid.

I am sure there are other pros and cons as well. to be frank, i have not used Marneus since 4th ed so not really sure about him. Lysander i did use often in 5th.

Thanks all.

Lysander is useful as a second HQ, so take a HQ with a better chapter tactics and choose that one instead (chapter tactics are seperate from his other rules, so you dont have to take stubborn if you dont want to. A really crunchy combo with him is to take him in a drop pod with some sternguard with combimeltas and storm bolters, and using vulkan as your other HQ, drop behind the enemy and watch as they rage while you reroll on every possible weapon in the squad.

Calgar is just a really expensive toolbox HQ and fire magnet. for the points take something else unless you really intend to be surrendering ground a lot, which in several different scenarios is the easiest way to lose.

Calgar also has a power sword, so if you want he could hit at initiative.

Overall Calgar is better, but 65 points is alot.

Lysander is better at fighting for his cost, but his chapter tactics are a real liability. Shooty marines actually benefit from failing morale checks in CC nowadays making stubborn actually negative in most circumstances.

Is Calgar ever worth taking with Power Armor? I have the old version of the model.

The big question then, is the stubborn vs. auto fail pass better. I can see a lot of situations, especially in 6th ed, where auto fail, fall back helps a lot...e.g., a tactical squad that managed to survive a round of close combat with some heavy hitters, fail, fall back, shoot the opponent with your army.

This is a crucial point. I'd prefer auto fail/pass all day.
But Marneus is too expensive since it may be hard to bring him into the thickest melee, if any.

Calgar is expensive, but he's still slightly better than lysander. Bolter drill is cool, but calgar's ability to dovetail with combat tactics is better. The thunder hammer is cool, but Calgar's ultrabolters (in combination with his other killing power) is better. Add bombardment and the rerolls, and he's killier.

Calgar is expensive, but you get what you pay for. Value-wise, they're rather close, but I think calgar edges out his opponent here.

I never really like lysander.
I never understood why anybody would take him. he is 175(?) points for a reroll and some cc insurance.

As many have said the special rules are where Marneus makes back his points. God of War is the ultimate utility for tactical squads or any shooting army. However, Cato Sicarius may be a cheaper alternative for a combat tactics based army, -65 points and all your units have ld 10. Not an auto pass but still a boost. Not quiet as durable either but still a solid choice. As has also been stated I don't like Lysander for the fact that he makes your army stubborn. Good for a CC army but not for my shooty SM. I've also heard he is kind of contradiction since he is a CC monster that boosts your shooting. But I have never used him and play as the Ultramarines 2nd company, So I may be a little biased.

Take both, Land raider rush forward with Calgar and a 5 man Terminator squad, disembark 1st turn. 2nd turn teleport down lots more terminators, including a 10 Man Shooty Terminator Squad with Lysander. Beat all face.

Granted, that's at least 1300 points of any given army. Might be too much, but yeah. Take Marneus Calgar's chapter Tactics.

I am going to have to go with Lysander on this one. 19 Death Company armed with Bolters, with a Librarian and Lysander attached to them is extremely powerful.

In 5th edition I almost never made use of Lysander's special bolter rule. I've always done a Crimson Fist themed drop pod army though.

Now in 6th I've found a use for Lysander beyond just being a one man wrecking crew. I still use drop pod sternguard, Pedro Kantor, and the like, but now with just a beacon that a lot of enemy players forget about I can drop a five man squad of tactical terminators with a cyclone missile launcher and Lysandor attached. Sternguard de-mech and probably all die horribly in the subsequent shooting, but come round two if my opponent forgot about the drop pods, here comes Lysandor and five more terminators in the back field to cause extra hurt.

Lysandor's Bolter Drill special ability makes shooty terminators all the more shooty. Pedro Kantor in close proximity to Lysandor and the terminators is just gravy with the Inspiring Presence special rule. It's got a lot of synergy.

I just can't justify the cost of Marneus. He'll punch things to death like a boss but he's just so expensive. I'm barely getting by stuffing Lysandor and a squad of termies w/ a cyclone launcher into my current list.

jadebullet wrote:
I am going to have to go with Lysander on this one. 19 Death Company armed with Bolters, with a Librarian and Lysander attached to them is extremely powerful.

That's almost 700 points before upgrade though.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

jadebullet wrote:
I am going to have to go with Lysander on this one. 19 Death Company armed with Bolters, with a Librarian and Lysander attached to them is extremely powerful.

That's almost 700 points before upgrade though.

Yes, yes it is. The DC are bone stock, though I may change it up with some fists here and there depending on the situation. It is in my 2K army. The rest of the army is 2 five man assault squads in Razorbacks, one 10 C:SM tactical squad meltabunker, Two Stormravens, and a Stormtalon.

Calgar, hands down. He is titanic, its even in his codex entry.

Extra wound, more attacks, those AP2 bolters, the rerolls and his army buffs.

Yeah he is expensive and im not a fan of named characters but for awesome SM characters he is it.

If Lysander hadnt come with the, for SM, bad Stubborn rule then id take him out of the two. They are oth equally good beat sticks, but Stubborn is just horrible compared to God of War.

Stubborn is a fun strategy for SM, a fun variant. It was great against the old DE codex when they had fear effects that could give you -8 Leadership. Even Still, 1 guy staying in the fight in 5th ed when he lost lots of models was pretty good, too. But now, with the lack of negative leadership modifiers in general, and the lack of danger to space marines falling back, I do agree Stubborn isn't as useful anymore.

It's hard to turn down a Stormshield. Plus, MC s10 Thunderhammer's good too.

I dont see why people are hating on Bolter Drill, its awesome. I run Lysander with either 10 Tac Termies or Sternguard and its amazing. With the termies, giving them twin linked storm bolters works very well, even better for things like overwatch where it nearly doubles hits. With Sternguard, getting to twin link special ammo can be very important also, you now hav to roll double snake eyes to kill urself with Vengeance rounds.

Its a ranged buff on a character that has zero ranged capability. Thats why people hate it.

Yes, but when you make it work, Bolter Drill is downright amazing. (especially with a unit that is pretty good at shooting their bolters, but also a murder machine in close combat.)

Fluff wise, I like Lyssander better. (I mean, he and a squad of termmys took down several Titans.) Personally, I think that Calgar's fluff is kind of weak. (At least in the 5th ed codex.) It comes off as trying to convey how badass he is, but by telling, rather than showing, and then it gets to the part where it mentions the one time he got injured and the marines under his control ended up making a wall around him with their corpses.

Personally, I think that Calgar needs a rule added called "Like a B****" where, if he goes down to one wound, all marines on the table must pass a leadership test each turn or else they have to run back towards Calgar that turn unless they are in base to base contact with Calgar.


That's just me though. On the tabletop Calgar is quite good, but definitely not worth the points cost unless you build the entire army around him.

Calgar doesn't have a chapter tactic. So taking both will not work as suggested.

Bolter drill gets a third more bolter hits, just buy more bolters.

Taking away combat tactics makes your entire army worse, so Lysander is not a great idea.
As a cc monster I would prefer Calgar every time.

Calgar is not perfect but he is very much usable.

Lysander is a massive beast, and stubborn can be made to work in your favour, however if its one on the other its Calgar.

Play a game with each. Both can win you the game. I took
Lysander into a tournament and he took down Belial and 5 terminator bodyguards. But the question is declare who you think is better.

Calgar.

Marneus is also a beast either way....those guns!!!!

 sfshilo wrote:
Marneus has artificer armorial if hes not in termie armorial btw. Marneus is also a beast either way....those guns!!!!

Nope, he's got regular PA.

Yeah just saw that.....was it artificer in third???

Maybe.

Stubborn is so much worse than God of War that this isn't even a contest.

Heck, Stubborn is worse than Combat Tactics now.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Stubborn is so much worse than God of War that this isn't even a contest.

Heck, Stubborn is worse than Combat Tactics now.

Doest not have to be

Assault marines or a tac squad suffering horrible dice for example

Also i suspect some players will adapt their shooting to restrict falling back if they want to charge

I can't wait for a new SM codex where Special Characters might unlock new Warlord traits instead of USR's.

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Stubborn is so much worse than God of War that this isn't even a contest.

Heck, Stubborn is worse than Combat Tactics now.

Doest not have to be

Assault marines or a tac squad suffering horrible dice for example

Also i suspect some players will adapt their shooting to restrict falling back if they want to charge

Don't you see how not getting shot if someone wants to charge you is an enormous benefit? Or that you'll have an attempt every round to leave that assault?

I would rather have Combat Tactics than Stubborn 9 out of 10 times. The only situations where Stubborn is better is if you're taking a break test in assault on the absolute last turn of the game when you're denying an objective or if you're within 12" of the edge and an Imperial Guard Psyker Battle squad has lowered your leadership.

And God of War beats both of those.

God of War alone makes Calgar better than Lysander. It has a legitimate case for being the best ability in the entire game.