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Can someone please explain to me if anywhere in a published source the Emperor fights the Void Dragon. I keep seeing references to this fight in background threads and can't find any evidence of it anywhere or in the lexicanum/wiki...

This is not a what if thread!

Cheers!

The source of the information is the Horus Heresy book Mechanicum.

A very good book it is indeed.

Edit: Also it is only referred to as the Dragon.

Also, the battle is repersented in the Eternity Gate, page 6 or 7 in the 1998 edition of the Warhammer 40,000 book. There's no text about the dragon, but on the gate you can clearly see the Emporer killing some sort of human faced Dragon. I know that image has been reporduced alot elsewhere. I'll look for a link.

hmmm. I couldn't find a link.....

anyway it's a great piece of art, showing a vast room, huge doors, and thousands of war banners


ahh, found a link
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Eternity_Gate#.UFx-B1Feft0

Isnt it said that the void dragon was a C'tan? Just wondering because I swear I have heard that before.

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
Isnt it said that the void dragon was a C'tan? Just wondering because I swear I have heard that before.

The Dragon in Mechanicum is not confirmed to be the C'tan the Void Dragon, but it is by far the most likely "theory" (If you can call it that).

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
Isnt it said that the void dragon was a C'tan? Just wondering because I swear I have heard that before.

The C'Tan on Mars is always referred to in the material as "the Dragon".

The "Void" moniker is from speculation based on an old old article that was an Inquisitor submitting a report demystifying Eldar creation cycles, and the Eldar stories involve a grand battle against a C'Tan named "Void Dragon". The result of that battle is not revealed, so we're not sure if this is that same dragon or a different one.

can't find any evidence of it anywhere or in the lexicanum

You can't find it in the Lexicanum because there is no proof that the dragon from Mechanicum is actually the Void Dragon. THat's just fan speculation and therefore it was not included.

Also, the battle is repersented in the Eternity Gate, page 6 or 7 in the 1998 edition of the Warhammer 40,000 book. There's no text about the dragon, but on the gate you can clearly see the Emporer killing some sort of human faced Dragon. I know that image has been reporduced alot elsewhere. I'll look for a link.

That image is way older and pre-dates all C'tan and Void dragon stuff by far. Therefore it can't depict anything like that. It is probably a representation of the Emperor slaying Chaos and Horus more specifically.

The C'Tan on Mars is always referred to in the material as "the Dragon".

There is no solid source, just speculations.

Yeah there just happen to be two cosmic dragons who have eaten stars and have an affinity for machinery.

Yeah there just happen to be two cosmic dragons who have eaten stars and have an affinity for machinery.

Missing the point. It is only the void dragon if and when (and not sooner) somebody from GW (or authorized associates) makes a statement that this is indeed the case. Before that it is: speculation based on your personal opinion.

But wait, in the new fluff all the C'tan were destroyed by the Necrons and made into shards. This occurred long before the Emperor was around. So hasn't the new fluff invalidated the whole "the Void Dragon is under Mars" thing?

Maybe all of the C'tan were not destroyed by the Necrons but they thought they were and later while they slept the big E beat one down and subdued it on mars.

 Inquisitor S. wrote:
Missing the point. It is only the void dragon if and when (and not sooner) somebody from GW (or authorized associates) makes a statement that this is indeed the case. Before that it is: speculation based on your personal opinion.

It's still a "theory", just one with overwhelming evidence behind it.

If memory serves, the image depicted on the Eternity Gate was the Emperor defeating Horus who is represented by the serpent. Very reminiscent of medieval images of Saint George vs the dragon/devil. In the Rogue Trader rulebook the term Void Dragon(s) appears to describe a group of Eldar pirates pre-craftworld era

 Darth Bob wrote:
But wait, in the new fluff all the C'tan were destroyed by the Necrons and made into shards. This occurred long before the Emperor was around. So hasn't the new fluff invalidated the whole "the Void Dragon is under Mars" thing?

Not necessarily...GW has made it clear that the HH series is canon, and Mechanicum is part of that.

 Darth Bob wrote:
But wait, in the new fluff all the C'tan were destroyed by the Necrons and made into shards. This occurred long before the Emperor was around. So hasn't the new fluff invalidated the whole "the Void Dragon is under Mars" thing?

There are hundreds of shards unaccounted for by the necrons. People seem to forget just how powerful a C'Tan shard can be. If a world had a greater daemon laying at its heart, would you not expect the world to become corrupted? Why could a C'Tan shard not influence in the same manner? Mars is still just one world. Sure it might have had a lot of influence in the shaping of the galaxy, but that doesn't mean it can't be manipulated like any other. you don't need a full blown C'Tan star god to do that. A daemon is still powerful despite not being Khorne himself. Besides, it's never been stated the Emperor was actually challenged by the fight.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
But wait, in the new fluff all the C'tan were destroyed by the Necrons and made into shards. This occurred long before the Emperor was around. So hasn't the new fluff invalidated the whole "the Void Dragon is under Mars" thing?

Not necessarily...GW has made it clear that the HH series is canon, and Mechanicum is part of that.

Actually i believe they stated the absolute opposite

They have said that there is no canon for 40k, and that the BL books are happening in an alternate 40k universe IIRC. They borrrow bits into the codex fluff from time to time though

Anyone have the quotes to hand? I don't have them saved to my HD.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

jareddm wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
But wait, in the new fluff all the C'tan were destroyed by the Necrons and made into shards. This occurred long before the Emperor was around. So hasn't the new fluff invalidated the whole "the Void Dragon is under Mars" thing?

There are hundreds of shards unaccounted for by the necrons. People seem to forget just how powerful a C'Tan shard can be. If a world had a greater daemon laying at its heart, would you not expect the world to become corrupted? Why could a C'Tan shard not influence in the same manner? Mars is still just one world. Sure it might have had a lot of influence in the shaping of the galaxy, but that doesn't mean it can't be manipulated like any other. you don't need a full blown C'Tan star god to do that. A daemon is still powerful despite not being Khorne himself. Besides, it's never been stated the Emperor was actually challenged by the fight.

Actually, it has been stated that he was challenged. He was getting his ass handed to him for zero return damage, until he spotted a weak spot and struck.

He also said that he was unable to actually destroy it Mechanicum again IIRC. If i have time tonight i'll find you the quote.

With the new Background in the Necron Codex, the Emperor would be fighting a Shard of the Void Dragon, not the full on might of a C'tan.

jareddm wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
But wait, in the new fluff all the C'tan were destroyed by the Necrons and made into shards. This occurred long before the Emperor was around. So hasn't the new fluff invalidated the whole "the Void Dragon is under Mars" thing?

There are hundreds of shards unaccounted for by the necrons. People seem to forget just how powerful a C'Tan shard can be. If a world had a greater daemon laying at its heart, would you not expect the world to become corrupted? Why could a C'Tan shard not influence in the same manner? Mars is still just one world. Sure it might have had a lot of influence in the shaping of the galaxy, but that doesn't mean it can't be manipulated like any other. you don't need a full blown C'Tan star god to do that. A daemon is still powerful despite not being Khorne himself. Besides, it's never been stated the Emperor was actually challenged by the fight.

Reducing the "Dragon" that the Emperor fought to merely a shard makes the Emperor look rather weak. It was stated that the Emperor had to exploit a weak point of the dragon's to defeat it rather than just brute forcing it with mind bullets. This is in line with the fact that the Void Dragon took a prolonged barrage from multiple blackstone fortresses, the kind of firepower Abaddon considered the planet killer chump change in comparison to, the kind of Firepower the Imperium is willing to sacrifice entire sectors wholesale to keep, and all it did was made him sleepy. It can be inferred that the Emperor exploited a weak point in the Void Dragon's defences created by this barrage it received a long time ago, akin to punching someone repeatedly in a bruised area to drop them when they would otherwise overmatch you.

 Kain wrote:

jareddm wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
But wait, in the new fluff all the C'tan were destroyed by the Necrons and made into shards. This occurred long before the Emperor was around. So hasn't the new fluff invalidated the whole "the Void Dragon is under Mars" thing?

There are hundreds of shards unaccounted for by the necrons. People seem to forget just how powerful a C'Tan shard can be. If a world had a greater daemon laying at its heart, would you not expect the world to become corrupted? Why could a C'Tan shard not influence in the same manner? Mars is still just one world. Sure it might have had a lot of influence in the shaping of the galaxy, but that doesn't mean it can't be manipulated like any other. you don't need a full blown C'Tan star god to do that. A daemon is still powerful despite not being Khorne himself. Besides, it's never been stated the Emperor was actually challenged by the fight.

Reducing the "Dragon" that the Emperor fought to merely a shard makes the Emperor look rather weak. It was stated that the Emperor had to exploit a weak point of the dragon's to defeat it rather than just brute forcing it with mind bullets. This is in line with the fact that the Void Dragon took a prolonged barrage from multiple blackstone fortresses, the kind of firepower Abaddon considered the planet killer chump change in comparison to, the kind of Firepower the Imperium is willing to sacrifice entire sectors wholesale to keep, and all it did was made him sleepy. It can be inferred that the Emperor exploited a weak point in the Void Dragon's defences created by this barrage it received a long time ago, akin to punching someone repeatedly in a bruised area to drop them when they would otherwise overmatch you.

Regardless of how it makes the emperor look, there is no doubt in the fluff it was still a shard. A very powerful shard, but a Shard none the less.

 Kain wrote:

jareddm wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
But wait, in the new fluff all the C'tan were destroyed by the Necrons and made into shards. This occurred long before the Emperor was around. So hasn't the new fluff invalidated the whole "the Void Dragon is under Mars" thing?

There are hundreds of shards unaccounted for by the necrons. People seem to forget just how powerful a C'Tan shard can be. If a world had a greater daemon laying at its heart, would you not expect the world to become corrupted? Why could a C'Tan shard not influence in the same manner? Mars is still just one world. Sure it might have had a lot of influence in the shaping of the galaxy, but that doesn't mean it can't be manipulated like any other. you don't need a full blown C'Tan star god to do that. A daemon is still powerful despite not being Khorne himself. Besides, it's never been stated the Emperor was actually challenged by the fight.

Reducing the "Dragon" that the Emperor fought to merely a shard makes the Emperor look rather weak. It was stated that the Emperor had to exploit a weak point of the dragon's to defeat it rather than just brute forcing it with mind bullets. This is in line with the fact that the Void Dragon took a prolonged barrage from multiple blackstone fortresses, the kind of firepower Abaddon considered the planet killer chump change in comparison to, the kind of Firepower the Imperium is willing to sacrifice entire sectors wholesale to keep, and all it did was made him sleepy. It can be inferred that the Emperor exploited a weak point in the Void Dragon's defences created by this barrage it received a long time ago, akin to punching someone repeatedly in a bruised area to drop them when they would otherwise overmatch you.

Different shards, different strengths. The fact that they are shards instead of the same being allows for discrepancies in power to be more reasonable.

"If" the dragon in mars is the void dragon, it being a shard would not only be more likely, but more reasonable. I refuse to fanboy enough to believe the emperor has more killiness than a blackstone fortress, and so him being challenged by a shard but being able to win in the end makes a good amount of sense, but that's just me.

Wether its a shard or not I dont think is an issue, the emperor still fought "a C'tan" shard or not and imprisoned it under mars. Ferrus Manus fought "a C'tan" and gained his silver hands from its necrodermis.

What about the other C'tan who are still not meant to be "shards"? Whats so powerful it needs an entire Dyson Sphere (which the Tyranids carefully avoid) to contain it? What is so powerful it can imprint a fear of death into every race (except orks)?

In my personal interpretation all the C'tan were "shardified" except the "big 4".

 vodo40k wrote:


In my personal interpretation all the C'tan were "shardified" except the "big 4".

I prefer to ignore what Ward wrote, and that all the C'tan were destroyed except for the "Big Four", who remain as they were during the War in Heaven (of course, the Void Dragon and the Outsider remain imprisoned, the former on Mars and the latter in wherever the other C'tan put him).

 Ascalam wrote:

They have said that there is no canon for 40k, and that the BL books are happening in an alternate 40k universe IIRC. They borrrow bits into the codex fluff from time to time though

Anyone have the quotes to hand? I don't have them saved to my HD.

I was going to ask the same thing, the first statement is true enough, Lynata can provide these sources, but the second one I am not so sure about although I do have a theory that the coloured spines on the sides of the books equate to a different version of events. The first three are all red and follow one timeline, then it splits off to the green, purple, tan, blue. The events follow the same timeline to an extent, but there are differences in each. A clear example is the message from Magnus. In the Green timeline the message is received before istvaan, in the tan, specifically The Outcast Dead, it's received after.

Just a thought...

The BL books aren't stated to exist in an "alternate universe". The BL books, the codex's, all WH40K fluff exists in the same universe to Games Workshop, it's just that none of them take precedence or are "more canon" than the other, even when they contradict.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


I was going to ask the same thing, the first statement is true enough, Lynata can provide these sources, but the second one I am not so sure about although I do have a theory that the coloured spines on the sides of the books equate to a different version of events. The first three are all red and follow one timeline, then it splits off to the green, purple, tan, blue. The events follow the same timeline to an extent, but there are differences in each. A clear example is the message from Magnus. In the Green timeline the message is received before istvaan, in the tan, specifically The Outcast Dead, it's received after.

Just a thought...

I asked this very question at the GW/BL booth at Gencon. After confirming with every person who was working there, the answer I got was that they represent different time periods during the heresy, but that there were some mistakes *cough* Outcast Dead*cough* when it came to the color of the spines. The only other exception is that the first three are red just to designate them as the first three. They're not parallel timelines .

Did they actually admit that the Outcast Dead timeline is a mistake?

Oh, you actually mean the colour of the spine was the mistake - in what way was it an error if they went into it?

 VikingChild wrote:
If memory serves, the image depicted on the Eternity Gate was the Emperor defeating Horus who is represented by the serpent. Very reminiscent of medieval images of Saint George vs the dragon/devil. In the Rogue Trader rulebook the term Void Dragon(s) appears to describe a group of Eldar pirates pre-craftworld era

I'd forgotten about the Eldar Void Dragons, but the Eternity Gate pre-dates Horus by a few years. I've never heard of Horus being represented as a serpent.... wait... there was some serpent imagry in that last book I read Fear ro Tread, but that Sanguinius who was calling himself the serpent under the fruit. The gate is the earliests reference I could find to the Emperor fighting a dragon.

and now after what Pilau wrote, I gotta go look at my books' spines

 Derrick Moore wrote:
[s. I've never heard of Horus being represented as a serpent...

Well the HH is based of the Fall in Christian mythology and Satan is a serpent in the garden of Eden

Void Dragon, Big Time. If a warboss is able to blow the emporer into the ground... then a dragon controlling the machine spirit should be able to do a bit more.