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So, there was a bit of talk on dakka about running blobs of veterans as a footguard army. I, like a few other posters, doubted the armies effectiveness. But as I wanted to try something new, I brought a dura-vet list to a 1k tournement.

And I loved it.

I had two wins and a loss at the end of the day, with me easily winning against a DA arm and a SW army, but getting tabled by a Chaos Daemons army. Besides for Harker under-performing in every game, the list worked like a charm. I have posted said list below, but I am curious to hear dakka's opinion on the concept of Dura-vets.


HQ:
Company Command Squad: 140
Plasma Pistol
Medic
Regimental Standard
Heavy Bolter
Carapace Armor
Krak Grenades

Elites:
Stormtroopers: 105
2x Melta Guns
Bolter

Troops:
Vets: 175
3x Plasma guns
Plasma pistol
Lacannon
Carapace armor

Vets: 175
3x Plasma guns
Plasma pistol
Lacannon
Carapace armor

Vets: 185
Harker
3x Melta
Demolitions

Heavy Support:
Leman Russ: 220
Exterminator
HB sponsons
Pask

What I found with my time with dura-vets is that they either worked really well, or they instantly folded. Against certain armies, that rely on a relatively small volume of fire, or rely a lot on Ap5, they do really, really well, having lots of numbers, and nearly as good of a save as a space marine.

Against armies that could put the firepower down in volume, though, they're just boned. A 4+ save isn't going to help you when your opponent can throw down obscene amount of tesla or splinter shots or heavy bolters. When you start losing a squad a turn to that pair of rifleman dreadnoughts, you'll start to see that it is possible to kill them just like guardsmen... 15 point guardsmen...

 Ailaros wrote:
What I found with my time with dura-vets is that they either worked really well, or they instantly folded. Against certain armies, that rely on a relatively small volume of fire, or rely a lot on Ap5, they do really, really well, having lots of numbers, and nearly as good of a save as a space marine.

Against armies that could put the firepower down in volume, though, they're just boned. A 4+ save isn't going to help you when your opponent can throw down obscene amount of tesla or splinter shots or heavy bolters. When you start losing a squad a turn to that pair of rifleman dreadnoughts, you'll start to see that it is possible to kill them just like guardsmen... 15 point guardsmen...

Flamers of Tzeentch proved to me that the 4+ giveth, and the AP4 taketh away.

No kidding. Part of the deal with it, oddly enough, is fliers. People are starting to spam heavy bolters and autocannons and assault cannons in order to shoot down fliers. Of course, all of these weapons wound guardsmen on 2's, and all of them are Ap4...

In the end, I found that having fewer, more durable guys was almost exactly as durable as having more, flimsier guys. I think dura-vets are better than MSU platoons because you get more firepower, and better concentration thereof.

However, as mentioned, their cardinal sin is failing to be more durable than MSU platoons (or, by extention, blobs). I've been getting thrown off the table enough to know that in order to be properly competitive, I need more than that.

In the end, it doesnt' matter what upgrades you have if you're too dead to be able to use them.

I've had moderate success with foot veterans when combined with the newly available defense line. A single line can provide cover for two separate squads with out bunching too close together, and so far has improved the survival of these squads against most things outside of barrage weapons.

The down side is this makes a static base, and means you need a CCS someplace in the back to order the troops to "get back in the fight" after the constant going to ground for survivals. This list I think you Ailaros might have a decent time with as it improves your staying power in the back field. I combine with the outflanking dude and several storm trooper squads for some surprise enemy deployment zone shenanigans and troops on your enemies quickly emptied objectives.

Either way with MSU durability is key, getting dura-vets costs 30 a squad and is negated by AP4 or better. The defense line is cover (so negated very rarely) and goes up to a 2+ when needed

Castitas wrote:
I've had moderate success with foot veterans when combined with the newly available defense line. A single line can provide cover for two separate squads with out bunching too close together, and so far has improved the survival of these squads against most things outside of barrage weapons.

The down side is this makes a static base, and means you need a CCS someplace in the back to order the troops to "get back in the fight" after the constant going to ground for survivals. This list I think you Ailaros might have a decent time with as it improves your staying power in the back field. I combine with the outflanking dude and several storm trooper squads for some surprise enemy deployment zone shenanigans and troops on your enemies quickly emptied objectives.

Either way with MSU durability is key, getting dura-vets costs 30 a squad and is negated by AP4 or better. The defense line is cover (so negated very rarely) and goes up to a 2+ when needed

On that note, I have been thinking of buying a vet squad with Harker, a HB and three sniper rifles and throwing them behind a defense line. They would be almost unkillable, save for ignore cover weapons.

With my brief use of Harker, what seemed to make the most sense was to outflank with him. That way you can actually get a scoring unit on an objective in your opponent's DZ. Of course, you have to have something else to actually take the objective in the first place.

Once you get there, that extra cover save will be all the more useful.

I tried them, but didn't have much luck. Of course, that was mainly because I ran up against their hard counters mostly (daemons especially) and just didn't feel like they were much different than my msu platoon lists.

I may give them a try again, or on days where I don't feel like unpacking a massive army, but I don't think they're really my style.

They are a lot of fun to play though.

I've taken to running them because my most common opponent (my brother) started taking 2x TFCs and a whirlwind when I started learning how to play footguard, and the TFC ignore cover shots aren't AP4...

If it wasn't for that, I'd be more willing to try MSU with infantry platoons

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I tried them, but didn't have much luck. Of course, that was mainly because I ran up against their hard counters mostly (daemons especially) and just didn't feel like they were much different than my msu platoon lists.

I may give them a try again, or on days where I don't feel like unpacking a massive army, but I don't think they're really my style.

They are a lot of fun to play though.

I am thinking of bringing along a GK strike squad to make daemons start a bit farther away. Seems like a rational plan. And for 100 points, not horrendously expensive.

Yeah the only real problem I had was the flamers of tzeentch. They are BRUTAL against a duravet list. You don't have the numbers to tank the shots, and you don't have any extra durability for the vets since it ignores armor and cover saves. There wasn't much I could do that game except kill his troops and try to give him as much of a black eye as possible. Had even one of my troop units lived though, I would've won, as I killed all his troop units by turn 2.

My problem with them was that while, yes, you could still bring a good horde of guardsmen, you didnt have the points to buy the main support units those guys needed to win. My Msu platoon lists are able to easily hit 100-130 guardsmen and still have tons of points left over for russes, stormies, Marbo, command squads, and even more "fun" stuff like artillery or fast attack choices.

Duravets ate up points at over twice that rate, and that's where I ran into trouble. Because yeah, I've got all these awesome BS 4 guardsmen with carapace armor and 3 plasma and a heavy weapon, and that's awesome. But I couldn't afford the tanks, HQ support, and special units that that kind of army needs to win.

That's my 2 cents though. They definitely have potential, and I've been thinking of other ways to run them besides just spamming them. I'm considering taking a couple to back up my platoons for example as a counterattack unit. Not sure how it will do, but I think it would have promise.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Yeah the only real problem I had was the flamers of tzeentch. They are BRUTAL against a duravet list. You don't have the numbers to tank the shots, and you don't have any extra durability for the vets since it ignores armor and cover saves. There wasn't much I could do that game except kill his troops and try to give him as much of a black eye as possible. Had even one of my troop units lived though, I would've won, as I killed all his troop units by turn 2.

My problem with them was that while, yes, you could still bring a good horde of guardsmen, you didnt have the points to buy the main support units those guys needed to win. My Msu platoon lists are able to easily hit 100-130 guardsmen and still have tons of points left over for russes, stormies, Marbo, command squads, and even more "fun" stuff like artillery or fast attack choices.

Duravets ate up points at over twice that rate, and that's where I ran into trouble. Because yeah, I've got all these awesome BS 4 guardsmen with carapace armor and 3 plasma and a heavy weapon, and that's awesome. But I couldn't afford the tanks, HQ support, and special units that that kind of army needs to win.

That's my 2 cents though. They definitely have potential, and I've been thinking of other ways to run them besides just spamming them. I'm considering taking a couple to back up my platoons for example as a counterattack unit. Not sure how it will do, but I think it would have promise.

I am thinking of putting the guns that need to get close (meltas) in a blob to run forward while my duravets sit back with the more expensive/ longer range guns.