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The BRB on page 34 says barrage weapons can fire indirectly. Doesn't say they "only" fire indirectly. Does that mean you can shoot directly with Barrage?

Also, if you have line of sight with a Barrage weapon, do you subtract the BS from the scatter?

You only fire indirectly if the target is out of Line of Sight, or inside the minimum range.
Direct shots otherwise, so yes you can subtract BS in this case.

Where people are getting confused is of the terms changes with the new edition. The direct fire from 5th (shoot like a normal blast, allowed to fire under min range) no longer exists. Now the old indirect is the new direct, except for out of LOS, and indirect only occurs as grendel said. The benefit of the 5th direct fire, other then min range, was being able to shoot on the move. Which barrage vehicles can do now anyway.

So I can fire my IG mortor teams directly if I have LOS?

Yes you can fire mortars direct if you have LOS (they have no min range either, so you can fire them at targets next to you if you want - put you helmet on first though).

There's really no such thing as "direct fire" in 6th edition. The term isn't in the rulebook. You could infer from the fact that there is "indirect fire" that there is a "direct fire" that's simply "not indirect". But such a "direct fire" doesn't really have anything to do with "direct fire" as it was in 5th edition.

There's barrage, and there's indirect barrage.

All barrage fire, indirect or otherwise, follows the rules for barrage weapons, which includes hitting the top floor of ruins, determining cover/casualties from the center of the blast, and the multiple-barrage method of placing templates. Indirect fire, which is simply defined as shots out of LoS or inside minimum range, mean that you do not get to subtract your BS from your scatter.

Pyrian wrote:
There's really no such thing as "direct fire" in 6th edition. The term isn't in the rulebook. You could infer from the fact that there is "indirect fire" that there is a "direct fire" that's simply "not indirect". But such a "direct fire" doesn't really have anything to do with "direct fire" as it was in 5th edition.

There's barrage, and there's indirect barrage.

All barrage fire, indirect or otherwise, follows the rules for barrage weapons, which includes hitting the top floor of ruins, determining cover/casualties from the center of the blast, and the multiple-barrage method of placing templates. Indirect fire, which is simply defined as shots out of LoS or inside minimum range, mean that you do not get to subtract your BS from your scatter.

Absolutely correct.
You either fire normally (call it direct fire if you wish) or you fire indirectly.

I'm so confused on these rules. For some reason they just don't compute in my brain. Could someone break it down Barney Style for me?

For Example, the Basilisk has a minimum range of 36"
If I fire it at anything with LOS 36"+ away, then it scatters normally and follows the rules for barrage weapons as normal, correct?

If it is out of LOS beyond minimum range, it scatters the full2D6 and follows normal rules for barrage weapons?

Where I get confused is firing within minimum range.
Can it fire within 36" at all?
It just scatters a full 2d6?
Does it maintain it's barrage and ordnance properties?

If a target is out of LOS or under the minimum range, the barrage will scatter a full 2d6.

Otherwise your subtract your BS.

It is always barrage and ordnance.

Thanks. I was confusing old and new rules and combining them.

stewy37 wrote:
I'm so confused on these rules. For some reason they just don't compute in my brain. Could someone break it down Barney Style for me?

For Example, the Basilisk has a minimum range of 36"
If I fire it at anything with LOS 36"+ away, then it scatters normally and follows the rules for barrage weapons as normal, correct?

If it is out of LOS beyond minimum range, it scatters the full2D6 and follows normal rules for barrage weapons?

Where I get confused is firing within minimum range.
Can it fire within 36" at all?
It just scatters a full 2d6?
Does it maintain it's barrage and ordnance properties?

Barrage weapons never stop firing in a barrage manner. If they fire with LOS, they still lob up high and come crashing down rather than firing directly like a cannon and they subtract their BS from any scatter. If they do not have LOD they fire the same way but they don't subtract their BS, if a hit is rolled it does not scatter. If its an ordnance weapon, it remains an ordnance weapon in either case. It is fine for a barrage weapon to scatter within minimum range, beyond maximum range or out of LOS (Page33-34 BRB). Minimum range appears to only considered for your placing of the shot now.

For Barrage weapons, min range simply determines whether you are obliged to fire indirect or not. If the target is within min range you can still target it, but you are not allowed to substract BS from any scatter.

Snapshot wrote:
For Barrage weapons, min range simply determines whether you are obliged to fire indirect or not. If the target is within min range you can still target it, but you are not allowed to substract BS from any scatter.

Thinking about that, I don't recall minimum range really being explained in the BRB. Page?

 Bausk wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
For Barrage weapons, min range simply determines whether you are obliged to fire indirect or not. If the target is within min range you can still target it, but you are not allowed to substract BS from any scatter.

Thinking about that, I don't recall minimum range really being explained in the BRB. Page?

I'm with you, they do not explicitly define min range (p50), but of course, Barrage (p34) specifically allows you to shoot at a target inside min range. I would take this to mean that if you have a non-Barrage weapon with a min range, they cannot fire inside that range.

Page 50, under weapon profile "Range".

Happyjew wrote:
Page 50, under weapon profile "Range".

Yeah to me that just means I cant place a template within the minimum range. Not that you don't subtract BS.

Which when taken in conjunction with the barrage rules (can fire within min range but it is indirect) tell you exactly how it works.

If a non-barrage weapon has a minimum range, it cannot fire at a target that is closer than that range.
If it is a barrage weapon it can fire there, but it fires indirectly, and you cannot reduce the scatter.

Happyjew wrote:
Which when taken in conjunction with the barrage rules (can fire within min range but it is indirect) tell you exactly how it works.

If a non-barrage weapon has a minimum range, it cannot fire at a target that is closer than that range.
If it is a barrage weapon it can fire there, but it fires indirectly, and you cannot reduce the scatter.

Ah, see asking me to rereading the first bullet point on page 34 would have been much quicker. I skipped over it the first few times because I thought 'Indirect fire? bah I know how that works' LMAO

Models still have minimum range, though, right? Like a whirlwind cannot under any circumstance target under it's 12" minimum.

 evildrspock wrote:
Models still have minimum range, though, right? Like a whirlwind cannot under any circumstance target under it's 12" minimum.

Apparently it can in 6th according to the first bullet point describing indirect fire. you just don't minus your BS from any scatter.

^This

Bausk wrote:I skipped over it the first few times because I thought 'Indirect fire? bah I know how that works' LMAO

Ahhh, I suspect now that this sort of thing is the reason there is more confusion on this subject than there ought to be.

evildrspock wrote:Models still have minimum range, though, right? Like a whirlwind cannot under any circumstance target under it's 12" minimum.

A whirlwind has a barrage weapon, so it will use the barrage rules for firing under its minimum range. If there are any weapons in 40K that have minimum ranges but are not barrage, I am unaware of them.

EDIT: Fixed quote tags.

@Pyrian
That's not my quote.

Happyjew wrote:
@Pyrian
That's not my quote.

LoL its mine. But I agree with the responces to both.

Ballisk was an ordnance barrage now it is a ordnance, barrage.
Just saying....