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52.1% of East Germans identify themselves as atheists. The pollsters were unable to find anyone under the age of 28 who professed a belief in a deity of any sort.

I find that remarkable, and remarkably positive.

Think the title's misleading, though. I'd imagine there are places with higher atheism rates.

 Seaward wrote:
The pollsters were unable to find anyone under the age of 28 who professed a belief in a deity of any sort.

Awesome. While I suspect the zero was probably due more to bad survey design than a genuine complete absence of faith among the under-28 group, that's a pretty interesting (and promising) lack of religion. Welcome to the future of the world?

East Germany was Soviet until 23 years ago, so it's not really that surprising that a population that grew up in a setting where religion was supressed would have a large number of atheists. You might be able to use the same argument of "people only believe in religion because they have been brainwashed by their parents" and apply it in reverse here.

 d-usa wrote:
East Germany was Soviet until 23 years ago, so it's not really that surprising that a population that grew up in a setting where religion was supressed would have a large number of atheists. You might be able to use the same argument of "people only believe in religion because they have been brainwashed by their parents" and apply it in reverse here.

That would have been my first guess to, but the article makes an interesting case that isn't true. I wasn't aware, for instance, that East Germany's very strict political controls didn't really extend to religion.

I think that still plays a much greater part than the article gives credit, but there are other factors going on. For instance, whereas elsewhere in the world declining religion among affluent population has been hidden by immigration of very religious populations (latino populations into the US, Poles into the UK), that won't be much of a factor in East Germany, which is still poorer than West Germany and unlikely to attract similar immigration numbers. That in itself isn't enough to explain the number being anywhere near 52%, so probably the decline of local Protestantism and the absence of any other religion to pick up the slack is the major factor.


Anyway, interesting article. Cheers to the OP for posting it.

It says they are sending missionaries to Germany due to people not wanting to believe in God.

Hopefully, the German people will tell them to bugger off.

I remember watching a documentary about the East German version of Coca Cola. Apparently, the state gave you 10 free cans a week!

D-USA, East Germany was not Soviet. It was a peace loving democracy that stood up to the Great Satan and its Zionist lackeys!

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I remember watching a documentary about the East German version of Coca Cola. Apparently, the state gave you 10 free cans a week!

D-USA, East Germany was not Soviet. It was a peace loving democracy that stood up to the Great Satan and its Zionist lackeys!

All I know is this: I want to watch Goodbye Lenin! again now...

That was a good movie.

I wonder what the numbers are like in other post-Communist countries? I know religion's not a major factor in Bulgaria, for instance, but a lot of people choose now to have a church wedding in addition to their (only part thar matters under the law) civil ceremony. And one of my wife's uncles gave us an icon of St. Gabriel as a wedding gift, though I think that was the only religious thing in our wedding.

 Mannahnin wrote:
That was a good movie.

I wonder what the numbers are like in other post-Communist countries? I know religion's not a major factor in Bulgaria, for instance, but a lot of people choose now to have a church wedding in addition to their (only part thar matters under the law) civil ceremony. And one of my wife's uncles gave us an icon of St. Gabriel as a wedding gift, though I think that was the only religious thing in our wedding.

My thought (without any facts to back it up) is that many of the other post-Communist countries seem to be in areas where the Orthodoxy has a bigger role, and while I often see Orthodox areas be less "religious" they would not consider themselves atheists. So I would not be surprised to see a smaller number there.

Who would have thought that East Germany was so advanced?

Palindrome wrote:
Who would have thought that East Germany was so advanced?

20% poverty rate.
12.7% unemployment.
Growing racism and neo-nazi affiliation.

But at least they don't believe in God, so they must be doing well

 Mannahnin wrote:
That was a good movie.

I wonder what the numbers are like in other post-Communist countries? I know religion's not a major factor in Bulgaria, for instance, but a lot of people choose now to have a church wedding in addition to their (only part thar matters under the law) civil ceremony. And one of my wife's uncles gave us an icon of St. Gabriel as a wedding gift, though I think that was the only religious thing in our wedding.

I'd proffer some of the countries have seen a strong resurgance. Poland is pretty religious. Morther Russia still has a strong church. Kazakhstan, well, you'll always have zinc.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
That was a good movie.

I wonder what the numbers are like in other post-Communist countries? I know religion's not a major factor in Bulgaria, for instance, but a lot of people choose now to have a church wedding in addition to their (only part thar matters under the law) civil ceremony. And one of my wife's uncles gave us an icon of St. Gabriel as a wedding gift, though I think that was the only religious thing in our wedding.

I'd proffer some of the countries have seen a strong resurgance. Poland is pretty religious. Morther Russia still has a strong church. Kazakhstan, well, you'll always have zinc.

Poland's always been religious, though, and it's always been Catholic.

Russia's...Russia. I compare Russian Orthodox religiosity to moderate Catholicism in the States; it's something you do out of habit, rather than something you talk about or even think about. Every time I've been in a Russian church - and it's more times than you'd think, now that I consider it - it's little old babushkas and not much else. I'm not sure how it's faring among the younger Russians, but I'd be surprised if it were gaining ground.

Yea Poland's has a strong history of that, which was oppressed during the godless commie pinko years, hence the resurgence.

I am not as versed on how the Russians are doing. It doesn't seem like, well anything, is thriving there besides Putin's new dictator elite. Its like the whole country needs to go on vacation to the Bahamas or something.

 Seaward wrote:
Russia's...Russia. I compare Russian Orthodox religiosity to moderate Catholicism in the States; it's something you do out of habit, rather than something you talk about or even think about. Every time I've been in a Russian church - and it's more times than you'd think, now that I consider it - it's little old babushkas and not much else. I'm not sure how it's faring among the younger Russians, but I'd be surprised if it were gaining ground.

That's what I was trying to go after with my "not atheist, but also not religious" thoughts in regards to some of the countries that have a strong orthodoxy or catholic background.

Athiesm is fine, but to have a strong moral compass and compassion for human beings should be what those 28 and unders should have even if there is no religion.

 d-usa wrote:

Palindrome wrote:
Who would have thought that East Germany was so advanced?

20% poverty rate.
12.7% unemployment.
Growing racism and neo-nazi affiliation.

But at least they don't believe in God, so they must be doing well

Exactly, but without the faceplam.

 d-usa wrote:

That's what I was trying to go after with my "not atheist, but also not religious" thoughts in regards to some of the countries that have a strong orthodoxy or catholic background.

I think that's a good way of classifying it.

Everyone thinks the Soviets tried to utterly get rid of religion within their domain, which isn't all that accurate. I'd say the most recognizable Russian landmark isn't the Kremlin - which most people wouldn't recognize - but St. Basil's Cathedral in Red Square, and that was true even during the USSR era.

 Frazzled wrote:
Yea Poland's has a strong history of that, which was oppressed during the godless commie pinko years, hence the resurgence.

Also, Pope John Paul the Second being Polish and Pope for 27 years may have something to do with it, too.

Yup, religion wasn't forbidden. It just wasn't promoted either. I suppose it may be that it was frowned upon and there were cases where individual people who were particularly adamant about abstaining from various government events due to their religious beliefs experienced repression in the form of not being admitted into a particular job or education, though I lack the statistical data to make anything but an assumption, and I only know that an official rule or policy like that did not exist (so it was probably some overzealous officials, similar to the recent abortion scandal in China). Generally, the government attempted to reduce people's dependency on the church, although it never quite succeeded in the small villages where the preachers remained a vital part of the small community - my grandma who lived in a small ~50 people village remained a firm church attender until the day she died, but my parents who moved into a city didn't.

One "substitute" for a church ritual I remember well is that of baptism being replaced by "youth consecration", whose origins are actually way older than the GDR itself, but it received much more support during those years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugendweihe

Generally, the GDR was very much about science and knowledge, and I guess the "progressive spirit" was at odds with the concept of religious superstition. At least to me it never quite occurred why exactly I should start to believe in some theoretical deity. I consider myself fortunate not to have been raised in a family which would have attempted to instill such beliefs in me, as I think that one's opinion on religion has a lot to do with one's childhood and the things we just become accustomed to.

d-usa wrote:

Palindrome wrote:Who would have thought that East Germany was so advanced?

20% poverty rate.
12.7% unemployment.
Growing racism and neo-nazi affiliation.
But at least they don't believe in God, so they must be doing well

Well, those factors are on the rise ever since the Reunification. Atheism in East Germany is the product of GDR government policies, though, and nothing that the current administration (whose leading party even has a major religion in its very name) would have had any hand in. Different causes from different governments' decisions, and, indeed, different cultural values being propagated.

Come to think of it, I wouldn't be too surprised if the number of atheists is actually dropping nowadays, but then again I guess it may be harder to get "into" it when you're not raised in a particular way. Sadly, this may not be true for racism, but from what I can see humanity as a whole has a tendency to appreciate an opportunity to point fingers and make someone else a scapegoat for their own issue. And just like during the Weimar Republic, rising unemployment and poverty are feeding this trend like wood in a fire, with arguments like "them foreigners are stealing our jobs" that US citizens living close to the Mexican border may be knowing all too well themselves. Unlike the US, however, Germany is still a good deal less multicultural, and homogeinity makes it easier to single out minorities that are perceived as "different".

I can only hope for the best. Sometimes, I'm ashamed at what has become of my home country. It's especially sad when considering that there was once this fair ideal of "global friendship" propagated under the Soviet Union. It may have been a political tool by the party, but I remember contact with other cultures being promoted and sponsored with stuff like youth group meetings and so on. As long as they weren't evil Imperialists, of course.

Excellent.

Time to hold a Porcupine Party!

One interesting theory I've heard is how state churches may be responsible for declining religious belief.

In countries where there's a state church, people tend to be apathetic about it. It's always there, but it's kind of in the background. You might go to it occasionally and do the "normal" things, but there isn't much reason to feel strongly about it so you end up with the kind of Christians who go to church for Christmas and maybe pray for something occasionally. And since they don't have much of a stake in religion it's easy to go from that minimal default belief to atheism, or at least to stop caring about religion entirely.

In the US, on the other hand, we never had a state church, so churches had to compete for members and religion became a marketing exercise. If you don't have a church (or don't care much about your church) there's a huge amount of effort spent on marketing various brands of Jesus to you. Do you like old traditional stuff? Great, we've got a Jesus for you! Are you a teenager in your rebellious phase? Great, let me tell you all about how you can rebel against society by going to church every sunday. Feeling overwhelmed by bills? Great, here's my book about how buying my brand of Jesus will increase your income 20000%! And of course once you buy one of these products it's like you're following your favorite sports team, you and your fellow fans are all unified against all your rivals and you have a high emotional stake in your choice. So it's much harder to abandon religion, you care about it more, and even if you stop caring so much there's always someone ready to lure you back in.

I could imagine a similar thing happening in eastern Germany, by moving religion to the state church the government set up that same kind of apathy and people just drifted away and never came back.

Peregrine wrote:I could imagine a similar thing happening in eastern Germany, by moving religion to the state church the government set up that same kind of apathy and people just drifted away and never came back.

I believe your theory about the excessive marketing, the various brands of religion, and the competitive spirit holds some merit. But I also have to point out that there was no "state church" in Eastern Germany. In fact, the Soviet Union enforced a strict segregation between state and church.*

After some initial confrontation between party and church during the first decade, religion just wasn't a part of daily life anymore and was largely ignored by both the government as well as the populace. Perhaps part of the reason was reduced funds and presence, and the Socialist government taking over many communal activities once used by the church to connect to the people, such as caring for the sick and elderly or doing events with the youth. Church taxes were abolished and government subsidies reduced by 25%, meaning that the church had to scale back many of its operations formerly funded by passive support from the state. Additionally, many churches were put under observation by the GDR's secret service, as some in the government feared religion as a potential enemy in the battle for peoples' hearts - not to mention that most preachers remained in contact with their western brothers-in-faith. Church magazines were only allowed to work via subscription but not public sale. Lastly, religious education was perhaps not exactly banned from the state's schools, but made a lot more difficult; the church was granted the constitutional right to use the school's facilities with attendance being decided by a child's parents, but a later law enforced a 2 hour break between curricular and extracurricular activities (exempting the state-run pioneer groups).

In the end, freedom of religion was guaranteed in the constitution, but the state's withdrawal of support and obstruction of the churches' attempts to recruit new believers gradually led to religion simply falling out of fashion. The culture of the GDR was one that propagated solidarity in all things, and people generally led a good life (not as luxurious as today, but also not as fearful of losing their jobs), so perhaps the religious community just didn't have a lot to offer. I think that historically, people mostly turn towards religion in times of need and despair, with divine intervention as a resolution to one's problems being a very attractive prospect for many. And once they're in it's nothing but a habit. Just like I'm still saying "oh my god", even though I'm not religious at all. I just cannot stop using that phrase.

*: Of course it's true that there was still just "one" Christian church as organised by the Bishop etc - but this has been so for centuries and it never really bothered anyone. In fact, this is the type of organisation under which the Inquisition, the Crusades and the Witch Hunts were done, so I don't think it actually affects how zealous its believers can get. It's got to be something else. Whenever a state and a church are working together, it usually ends with the church being granted ever more power to exert its influence and/or act against "enemies of the faith", whoever that may be.

The title of the article got it all wrong as there is no such thing as a "Godless place on earth"

GG

generalgrog wrote:The title of the article got it all wrong as there is no such thing as a "Godless place on earth"

GG

There are plenty of godless places. In Eastern Germany, very few people in believe in a God. In Antarctica, pretty much no one believes in any Gods. In godless public schools around the world, they force Christians to have gay marriages and then kill them in the name of the Atheist God. In China only about 1% of people believe in the Christian god you're referring to. India is only slightly higher with around 2.3% of the population being Christian.

 LoneLictor wrote:

generalgrog wrote:The title of the article got it all wrong as there is no such thing as a "Godless place on earth"

GG

There are plenty of godless places. In Eastern Germany, very few people in believe in a God. In Antarctica, pretty much no one believes in any Gods. In godless public schools around the world, they force Christians to have gay marriages and then kill them in the name of the Atheist God. In China only about 1% of people believe in the Christian god you're referring to. India is only slightly higher with around 2.3% of the population being Christian.

I think his point is that while belief in god may vary, the God is omnipresent.

 Polonius wrote:
I think his point is that while belief in god may vary, the God is omnipresent.

Yeah. It's pretty impressive arrogance though.

(Plus, we already have a word for a place where that genocidal tyrant is omnipresent: hell.)

 Peregrine wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I think his point is that while belief in god may vary, the God is omnipresent.

Yeah. It's pretty impressive arrogance though.

(Plus, we already have a word for a place where that genocidal tyrant is omnipresent: hell.)

First, attributing an attribute onto another being isn't arrogance. It might be flattery or exaggeration, but it's not arrogant for me to say "my friend is super smart."

Second, genocide is the destruction of a people, nation, or culture. The god of abraham did wipe out all the peoples, but that's not really genocide. More like omnicide. the killing of all.

Third, the very definition of hell is that it is removed from god. So, it's actually the one place he isn't.

 Polonius wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

generalgrog wrote:The title of the article got it all wrong as there is no such thing as a "Godless place on earth"

GG

There are plenty of godless places. In Eastern Germany, very few people in believe in a God. In Antarctica, pretty much no one believes in any Gods. In godless public schools around the world, they force Christians to have gay marriages and then kill them in the name of the Atheist God. In China only about 1% of people believe in the Christian god you're referring to. India is only slightly higher with around 2.3% of the population being Christian.

I think his point is that while belief in god may vary, the God is omnipresent.

Yes and a deeper point about............ hope.

GG

 Polonius wrote:
First, attributing an attribute onto another being isn't arrogance. It might be flattery or exaggeration, but it's not arrogant for me to say "my friend is super smart."

Yeah, but saying your friend is smart (presumably with good reason) is very different from declaring, with no good reason, that your god is everywhere, even in places where your religion is a trivial minority. It's arrogant because it dismisses all other equally valid (that is, not valid at all) beliefs and assumes that yours is the universal and correct one. It's the same kind of thing as telling someone you'll pray for them when they state a belief you don't agree with.

Second, genocide is the destruction of a people, nation, or culture. The god of abraham did wipe out all the peoples, but that's not really genocide. More like omnicide. the killing of all.

True, I suppose I should give god credit for having higher ambitions than mere genocide. However, the Bible is full of incidents where god commands his chosen people to go wipe out a rival nation or culture (complete with smashing their babies against rocks), so it's safe to say that god is a fan of both omnicide and genocide.

Third, the very definition of hell is that it is removed from god. So, it's actually the one place he isn't.

Nah, that would be Hell, the place where you hope you go when you die. A place where god is omnipresent would be hell, a place of horrible suffering.

 generalgrog wrote:
Yes and a deeper point about............ hope.

Lol? The thought of your god being omnipresent doesn't really inspire hope. More like screaming in terror?