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im new to playing orks in 40k and was hoping for some comments and criticism on the army list i created.

HQ
Warboss
- mega armor

TROOPS
ork choppa boys x 34 (2 squads of 12, 1squad of 10)
-nob x 3
-PK x 3
-Boss pole x3

Gretchin x 42 (2 squads of 21)
-runtherd x 4

HEAVY SUPPORT
killa kan x 6 (3 squads of 2)
grotzookas x 6

DEDICATED TRANSPORT
trukk x 3
-stikkbomb chukka x 3
-reinforced ram x 3


what challenges or weaknesses will this army list have?

the total points come out to 995

Seems really bland. Take some more flash for ya teef, boss.

mouskowitz wrote:
im new to playing orks in 40k and was hoping for some comments and criticism on the army list i created.

HQ
Warboss
- mega armor

TROOPS
ork choppa boys x 34 (2 squads of 12, 1squad of 10)
-nob x 3
-PK x 3
-Boss pole x3

Gretchin x 42 (2 squads of 21)
-runtherd x 4

HEAVY SUPPORT
killa kan x 6 (3 squads of 2)
grotzookas x 6

DEDICATED TRANSPORT
trukk x 3
-stikkbomb chukka x 3
-reinforced ram x 3


what challenges or weaknesses will this army list have?

the total points come out to 995

at 1000pts you can get more of a punch with nob biker death star and ork boy mobs or warbiker spam with wazdakka.

some of the weaknesses in the list
all the opponent has to do is to shoot at the trukks to cut off you mobility and force the everything to footslog. the list also has no long range fire support

the gretchin wont win in CC if someone charges them. WS2 vs WS4, S2 vs T4 on average your hitting on 4s then wounding on 6s while against MEQ theyre hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s. the gretchin will probably tie units up for a turn or 2 but thats about it. dont rely on them to much for other than to park on an objective in your deplyment.

Let's just say "Biker Nobz are very effective, but you pay for what you get". I really don't see why everyone asks every new Ork player to field Nob bikers. You have to use different kits to assemble them, which is more than what can be expected from someone who has just started playing Orks.
You really want to give a cybork body to your Warboss, he's very vulnerable to AP2 in this form.
I'd recommend that you take 1 minimal Grot mob max. They're worthless in combat and they can't keep up with Trukks. They can hold the home objective, but that's about it. Maybe you could get more Trukk boyz instead?
Unless you often play against Necrons, Stikkbomb Chukkas are sort of a waste since Boyz are I2 anyway. You could get RPJ instead to close with the enemy a little faster.
Now for recommended changes: In general, your list lacks long range support (Lootas would be my recommendation) and especially transport busting.The Kanz and Trukks are also a bit awkward since Grotzookas have a short range and your Trukks will already have offloaded your Boyz when you get into range, and thus you won't have a lot of targets to shoot at. If you aren't that hot on the Kanz, you could get Big Gunz and/or Lootas instead, and maybe even add another Trukk full of Boyz.
BTW, that's the first time I've seen a 4+ save unit called a Deathstar. Assault Termies and Paladins weep today

Hedkrakka wrote:
Let's just say "Biker Nobz are very effective, but you pay for what you get". I really don't see why everyone asks every new Ork player to field Nob bikers. You have to use different kits to assemble them, which is more than what can be expected from someone who has just started playing Orks.

BTW, that's the first time I've seen a 4+ save unit called a Deathstar. Assault Termies and Paladins weep today

it helps to know whats good so as to not waist money on models that arent as combat effective as them. if you going to pump money into the game/hobby you dont want to lose "all" the time and thats not to say that a small kan wall wont do well at 1000pt lvl.

if you really want to make them all individual nobs then yes you can buy the nob box kit and make 3 full scale nobs, but you dont have to. people dont have to buy all the models of their dream list or power house list off the bat. buy it a box at a time and practice.

do the math. 10 biker nobz, 2 wounds each 20 wounds total at T5, 4+ armor save, 4+ auto cover save when they move (who isnt going to move them?), 5+ feel no pain with painboy, 5 + cybodies, TL assault 3 guns at S5 for 30 TL shots total. they can rip through infantry and soften up heavy infantry while also ripping through rhino chassis and other medium armored vehicles. you have a 50/50 shot for whatever 4+ your using and then a 5+ back you up. if you dial it back a bit and put 2 maxed units of them on the table theyll absorb so much fire giving you the chance to move your mobile units/scoring units and taking the heat off any air support or long range support you have. a unit that has TL 30+ shots and can make multiple saves and can move 12"-24" a turn isnt to be taken lightly.

Alright, I'll do the math. What you're talking about is a maxed out Nob biker mob. How many points does it cost? As far as I remember, somewhere between 500 and 600 pts. So 2 maxed units of Nob bikers is out of the question. Add two reasonably kitted Bike Warbosses to make them Troops-you can barely fit them into 1500 pts. For 600 points you can get 100 T4 wounds (Boyz) if you want to, or you can get an average of 80 S7 shots (Lootas), or a 2+/5++ "real" deathstar (MANz+Mad Dok), whatever you want to. And they're all OK. Effectiveness is relative.
You may love Nob bikers, and that's completely fine. You can say they are fast, versatile, harder to kill than most things in our codex, hard hitting etc. etc. And you would be right. But their drawbacks should also be pointed, i.e. (very) high cost, lack of scoring unless a Warboss is taken, a somewhat poor save compared to units with similar price tags (read: Paladins) and lack of feasibility of maxing them out.
In my experience, I've seen Warbikers and Nob bikers used very effectively (in small numbers) in conjuction with Trukk boyz and supporting fire, i.e. in a balanced army. If you want to build an army around bikes, I'd recommend Wazdakka.

Hedkrakka wrote:
BTW, that's the first time I've seen a 4+ save unit called a Deathstar. Assault Termies and Paladins weep today

You wanna tell me 20 Genestealers with scything talons,adrenal glands, and toxin sacs with a Broodlord thats has Biomancy and a Tyranid Prime with lash whip and bonesword isn't a death star?

Do not field nob bikers at 1000 points. They will be at least 400 points worth, which can be destroyed with a single shot from a vindicator. They are great just a huge risk at low points.

The warboss in mega armour makes him slow. If a trukk blows he forces his unit to walk, also running him alone is risky due to warlord VP and going with grots gives him toughness 2.
Try 'eavy, cyborg, attack squig, klaw and bosspole as a happier set up.

Trukks(read that as boys) do not really want 'nades. Just drop them. The rams are virtually needed, just remember you have them.

3 units of trukk boyz is not many. They unforgiving, if you use them badly then you lose one too mny before they get hit in cc and thye die too easily. I would bring another unit.

The grots are great. You have limited scoring units which are going to die. 2 units is excessive. ALways go to ground. Later get them a quadgun or lascannon to shoot.

The kans ought to have rockets, as they are more useful and mean you can deal with mech(also flyers). However, their grot gun is lovely and you'll face a lot of infantry so you'll think they are great. Drop them 2 hull points makes them easy kills in shooting or cc.

So you want more shooting. To hit flyers at the very least.

If you want a shooting cover replace them lootas and ADL with lascannon.

My own preference would be 6 rocket buggies and 4 units of trukk boys.

 Riddick40k wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:
BTW, that's the first time I've seen a 4+ save unit called a Deathstar. Assault Termies and Paladins weep today

You wanna tell me 20 Genestealers with scything talons,adrenal glands, and toxin sacs with a Broodlord thats has Biomancy and a Tyranid Prime with lash whip and bonesword isn't a death star?

Simple answer-they're extremely easy to kill. That's not a deathstar, that's a (admittedly really big) glass cannon (or claw, if you prefer )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MFletch wrote:
Do not field nob bikers at 1000 points. They will be at least 400 points worth, which can be destroyed with a single shot from a vindicator. They are great just a huge risk at low points.

Finally!

How about running this idea at 1000 points... little kan crazy

HQ
Warboss-100
pk cybork
skorcha kombi

TROOPS
11 shoota boyz-146
1 nob bp pk
trukk
Reinforced ram

12 shoota boyz-152
1 nob bp pk
trukk
Reinforced ram

12 shoota boyz-152
1 nob bp pk
trukk
Reinforced ram

HEAVY SUPPORT
9 Killa Kanz-450
rokkitz

Thats 1000 on the dot i think it would be pretty funny at 1000 points!

This list sounds nice! But a full mech without KFF seems quite different to what we're used to. The vehicles must spread out in this case-We don't want that demolisher cannon blasting the clumped vehicles and taking out like half the list at the same time Slugga Boyz are good (maybe even slightly better) on the Trukks as well. Personally I'm so poor at picking one type of Boy, they're both so good

Hedkrakka wrote:

 Riddick40k wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:
BTW, that's the first time I've seen a 4+ save unit called a Deathstar. Assault Termies and Paladins weep today

You wanna tell me 20 Genestealers with scything talons,adrenal glands, and toxin sacs with a Broodlord thats has Biomancy and a Tyranid Prime with lash whip and bonesword isn't a death star?

Simple answer-they're extremely easy to kill. That's not a deathstar, that's a (admittedly really big) glass cannon (or claw, if you prefer )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MFletch wrote:
Do not field nob bikers at 1000 points. They will be at least 400 points worth, which can be destroyed with a single shot from a vindicator. They are great just a huge risk at low points.

Finally!

The nob bikers are more flexible than megnobz. In order to make a maxed unit of meganobz as flexible you have to spend another 160pt for mad doc grotsnik and anothe 120pt for a deff rolling battlewagon which would put them at 730pt. Thats 60-110pts more that an averafe combat effective loadout for a maxed nob biker mob.

With the vindicator, it only has a 33% chance of a direct hit and the nob bikers still get an auto 4+ cover with a 5+invul. Even then you time the assualt and stay out from the vindicator or slightly in, move 12"on your turn for a flank shot, then assualt and your good to go. But, i would have to agree a maxed nob biker unit is a point sink at 1000pts in which case you run them small or just spam warbikers if bikes are being chosen.

On the other hand whoever dares wins.

Well, with the genestealers it really depends. to shooting, yea they dont fair so well but thats whu they go into terrainand in assault they wreck face, and the fact they can out-flank or infiltrate to get up close. and there is no way your going to kill all of them with 20 of em, and with 4 rending/poison re-roll ones, and str5 hits on the charge will destroy most anything. plus, if you focus on them all the other beasties get closer and closer or if you shoot the beasts then the stealers get closer to rip you to shreads. and with biomancy they can either make themselves tougher or make the meal they are going to destroy softer.

MFletch wrote:Do not field nob bikers at 1000 points. They will be at least 400 points worth, which can be destroyed with a single shot from a vindicator.

Not bloody likely. Your opponent has to hit which, with proper displacement, hits a max of 3 models. Then the vindi still has to wound, and the orks still get cover. A vindi is looking at, on average, taking out a bit less than a bike per turn. Against a unit that can move 12" and assault it with klaws against rear armor. Nob bikers have much more to fear from volume of fire than from strong individual attacks, which, along with their mass killing power, is what makes them a deathstar.

You obviously don't NEED nob bikers, of course, but they're not a bad option if what you want is more bikes.

As for long-range support, I kind of question how much it's needed. With RPJ, those ork trukks are blasting forwards 19" on the first turn. Even if the trukk gets wrecked, they still have an average of 13" of charging they'll do. That's a 32" (up to 37") threat range for getting into assault sometime in turn 2, and that's assuming that the trukks are wrecked right away. I don't know how much long range support you'd really need with that kind of mobility.

I do agree that if you want to run trukks, you should be running more trukks. And by that, I mean you should have an army with more or less nothing but trukks (or battlewagons). A couple of trukks running forward is a nuisance. 100 trukk boyz and 8 MANZ all in my deployment zone in close combat before I get to start my second turn is terrifying.

exactly. thats more often than not the only way to run orks. spam pure trucks and or battlewagons, spam pure warbikers with nob bikers, spam dakkjets and bikers for half or more of the list.

 Gutstuf Ugfang wrote:

The nob bikers are more flexible than megnobz. In order to make a maxed unit of meganobz as flexible you have to spend another 160pt for mad doc grotsnik and anothe 120pt for a deff rolling battlewagon which would put them at 730pt. Thats 60-110pts more that an averafe combat effective loadout for a maxed nob biker mob.

With the vindicator, it only has a 33% chance of a direct hit and the nob bikers still get an auto 4+ cover with a 5+invul. Even then you time the assualt and stay out from the vindicator or slightly in, move 12"on your turn for a flank shot, then assualt and your good to go. But, i would have to agree a maxed nob biker unit is a point sink at 1000pts in which case you run them small or just spam warbikers if bikes are being chosen.

On the other hand whoever dares wins.

I think you're confusing flexibility with speed. And you're being biased again-You're adding Grotsnik's cost to the Meganobz but not the Biker boss to the bikers, which evens out the points (and is slightly in the Meganobz' favor).
But maxing out Meganobz? No thanks, I'm not crazy. 5 is the maximum practical unit size for me. Exactly the same way as 5 Wyches are stronger than 15, 5 Fire Dragons are better than 10, and 12 or 20 Boyz are better than 30. Maxing out nob bikers is also quite wasteful IMO, a unit of about 6 is very effective but gets too expensive and unwieldy very quickly. I like to look at their practical value, not their maxed out stats. So while I do accept that Nob bikers are pure awesomeness, I strongly oppose your view that they are essential or should be taken in two units of 10, except in Apocalypse games.
You're right about the vindicator, you'll have no opposition from me there.
Concerning "who dares wins", you might be right, but caution is a part of the game IMO (i.e. not risking that many points by cramming them into just one unit). I swear by this gentleman's argument:
"Weigh the considerations first, take the risks later." -Helmuth von Moltke, the Elder





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:

As for long-range support, I kind of question how much it's needed. With RPJ, those ork trukks are blasting forwards 19" on the first turn. Even if the trukk gets wrecked, they still have an average of 13" of charging they'll do. That's a 32" (up to 37") threat range for getting into assault sometime in turn 2, and that's assuming that the trukks are wrecked right away. I don't know how much long range support you'd really need with that kind of mobility.

I do agree that if you want to run trukks, you should be running more trukks. And by that, I mean you should have an army with more or less nothing but trukks (or battlewagons). A couple of trukks running forward is a nuisance. 100 trukk boyz and 8 MANZ all in my deployment zone in close combat before I get to start my second turn is terrifying.

Simply put, no. My main army is DE, which is about 5" faster than Speed Freeks AND has much better transports (Jink, better weapon, cover save from flat out, NS etc) , but even they need Warriors, Ravagers, Razorwings, Trueborn etc. i.e. a lot of ranged support. Why? There are a lot of things Wyches, Wracks and Incubi can't deal with. Same for Orks-there are things Nob bikers can't deal with, so you need ranged support. Something to pop transports (my favorite is Lootas) and soften up problematic units. Then you need enough scoring units-Boyz-so that you can capture and hold objectives. The bottom line is, even if you get into combat, it won't save you sometimes-Orks are a balanced army, not the best in assault, not the best in ranged. Even 'Zerkers can kill Nob bikers if they get the charge, while there is little point in entering a shooting contest with Necrons or IG. So you need some choppy and some shooty stuff.
(Of course, running an assault based list with DE isn't that viable anymore, so the above comments about DE are largely for 5th)

the nob biker death star or stars dont need a warboss(its recommended no matter the load out/size) to be deadly and have high survivability while the mega nobz need grotsnik and battlewagon to achieve flexibility.

nob biker death stars can move 12" then 12" again, drop 30 S5 TL shots by themselves, an auto 4+, and 4+,5+,5+, W2 each, and the ability to take kombi weapons, buffing gear, and pain boys allowing for cybodies and feel no pain.
mega nobz only can footslog unless aided by a trukk or battlewagon(preferably the battlewagon) allowing a movement of 6" or 12" then 6" , have 2+,5+, same Ws, and a max of 20 S4 TL shots, have the same gun upgrade options, require an HQ character to give them feel no pain and cybodies.
point for point the nob biker death star comes out to 620ishpt-670ishpt combat effective load out with minor variations; while the mega nobz are 725pts with a combat effective load out without upgrades to themselves.

so, all that for nob bikers + "speed" = more flexibility.

as for taking 2 units of them, they would be geared down and or debuffed to make them work at 2000pts and only really in a full biker list with possible minor variations. if theyre maxed out past 580pts-600pts then they truly become a point sink.
after play testing 1 and 2 nob biker death stars for a month now, 1 maxed out unit is looking the best choice at 1500pts-2000pts if taken for the army list.

Hedkrakka wrote:My main army is DE, which is about 5" faster than Speed Freeks AND has much better transports...but even they need Warriors, Ravagers, Razorwings, Trueborn etc. i.e. a lot of ranged support. Why? There are a lot of things Wyches, Wracks and Incubi can't deal with. Same for Orks

It's not a good comparison, though. DE and orks are rather different armies.

DE shows up with their fast, flimsy vehicles, and if the vehicles are destroyed, the DE player is left with practically nothing. When the venom full of wyches explodes, that unit's shooting capability is completely gone, and the explosion likely kills most of the wyches (which, if you were only bringing 5 in the first place, likely means a total loss). In the case of orks, when the vehicle is destroyed, 11x sluggas or shootas and a klaw nob pile out and beat friggin face, transport or no transport.

Put another way, DE is like guard - once the box is ruined, you consider everything a total loss. Ork are much more like space marines - you take a squad with a 35 point upgrade that makes them go faster, and if the transport is destroyed, well, so what?

With basic upgrades, you can field 72 models in 6 trukks for fewer than 1000 points with orks, and that includes 6 klaw nobz and trukk upgrades. I don't think I've EVER seen a DE player with anything close to that many infantry models before. Heck, in the last 1850 point game I played, my DE opponent showed up with only 42 infantry models. At that many points, said ork list can EASILY blow past triple digits of units once you throw in lootas, big MANZ squads and maybe some bikers.

My point, here, is that comparing DE to orks is far from an apples to apples comparison. As such, DE may need certain kinds of support units for their kinds of troops in their kind of list, but that doesn't mean an ork player is bound by the same needs.

At 1000 points there are two main (and diametrically-opposed) approaches to list building:
- a scaled-down version of a larger, balanced list (Pros: units you build can be re-used as you increase your inventory)
- defense-in-depth is weaker, so you take a monster/deathstar/whatever(Pros: you may win often, but it's often 'gimmicky' and not necessarily useful for tactical development)

I see the responses above from players in both camps. They are both right.

So what do you want to do?
Win early, to generate enthusiasm? Go with a deathstar, but you might be looking at dealing with disappointment later. Maybe you'll have invested enough in the hobby to see you through the lean spell.
Or take some learning losses now, but by spending wisely, on future-proof units, you may end up better set for the long haul. Unfortunately, the spanner in the works here is the always-changing landscape, every so many years GW rips the floor from under you, and your army ends up destined for the shelf.

How important is the hobby (assembling, kitbashing, painting) to you?
If you don't mind playing Grey Freeks, then stay flexible and don't worry about building units for the future (but don't expect to do well at tournaments).
If playing with painted armies is a must, then spend your money wisely.

On a final note, Orks make great allies now, so maybe consider units that could serve that purpose, rather than being the primary detachment.
Cheers, Paul.

Now I would build your army for the long term. You don't want something that works at 1000 pts but is absolute crap at 1850 because you don't know how it works...

So looking at your list, you appear to be going for speed so let's start with the base.

12 ork boyz in trukk w rokkit launcha and red paint job... Nob w Pk and BP 157

Now do that X 5 785

Now I would like something with speed that can perhaps assist the trukk boyz in HTH...

2 x 5 Warbikes (Nob with PK AND BP) 330 so 1115

Now I want some supplimentary firepower so now it is either lootas or dakka jets... seeing we like speed, 3 dakka jets... 390

1505

Now we need a rock hard boss and attack unit...

Warboss on Bike, w Cybork Body, PK 135
4x Nobz with Ug Choppa on Bike 200
1840

OR

Warboss in Mega armor 100
Trukk RP and Rokkit 45
5 x MAN 200
1850

So basically you have the core of your army now and just need to add to it...

 Ailaros wrote:

MFletch wrote:Do not field nob bikers at 1000 points. They will be at least 400 points worth, which can be destroyed with a single shot from a vindicator.

Not bloody likely. Your opponent has to hit which, with proper displacement, hits a max of 3 models. Then the vindi still has to wound, and the orks still get cover. A vindi is looking at, on average, taking out a bit less than a bike per turn. Against a unit that can move 12" and assault it with klaws against rear armor. Nob bikers have much more to fear from volume of fire than from strong individual attacks, which, along with their mass killing power, is what makes them a deathstar.

Firstly I didn't list all the vulnerabilities of nob bikers, I gave one as an example, there are a few but still means they are a risk to play them at low points. If the enemy has heavy flamers for example or if grey knights can force assault then you are ought of luck.

My main point though, unless you are being ultra silly then you are virtually guaranteed a template position that touches 3 bikers minimum, if my 5'' template doesn't hit three I am going to carefully measure coherency of the nob bikers. BS4 makes a hit quite likely.
You are averaging 70 points per model, so if you can remove more than one model you've made your points back. Then they happen to be leadership 7, even with a bosspole, again if that model is still alive, they stand a good chance of running away afterwards.
This is all hypotheticals but in practice nob bikers are scared of vindicators and running a large percentage of your army in one unit that has some chance of failing is silly.

 Ailaros wrote:

MFletch wrote:Do not field nob bikers at 1000 points. They will be at least 400 points worth, which can be destroyed with a single shot from a vindicator.

Not bloody likely. Your opponent has to hit which, with proper displacement, hits a max of 3 models. Then the vindi still has to wound, and the orks still get cover. A vindi is looking at, on average, taking out a bit less than a bike per turn. Against a unit that can move 12" and assault it with klaws against rear armor. Nob bikers have much more to fear from volume of fire than from strong individual attacks, which, along with their mass killing power, is what makes them a deathstar.

Keep in mind that proper use of premeasuring makes assaulting Vindicators extremely difficult or impossible.

 maxpower3579 wrote:
Well, with the genestealers it really depends. to shooting, yea they dont fair so well but thats whu they go into terrainand in assault they wreck face, and the fact they can out-flank or infiltrate to get up close. and there is no way your going to kill all of them with 20 of em, and with 4 rending/poison re-roll ones, and str5 hits on the charge will destroy most anything. plus, if you focus on them all the other beasties get closer and closer or if you shoot the beasts then the stealers get closer to rip you to shreads. and with biomancy they can either make themselves tougher or make the meal they are going to destroy softer.

Which is what a deathstar is, a unit that will wreck anyones face or be such a huge firing magnet that you have to shoot your entire army at to kill which leaves the rest of your army unscathed to wreck face

exactly

What about a "Bad Boyz" list
Ghazghull and 3 mega nobz
5 nob bikers with cybork bodies and painboy
12 boys +1 nob with a PK
2 battle wagons with red paint job and 2 deff rollaz

Might be fun. Every thing but the boys are easily scratch built.

Well you can go 24" on the first turn with the trucks ad hope they Kareen where you want them to. Just position them in deployment so the enemy's weapons are out of range

moar nob bikers lootas dakkajets please

If you want to play like the power gamers, and ruthlessly cull all but the most 'efficient' units from your force go right ahead. If your more inclined towards fun armies, or balancing power and fun, then feel free not to use those units listed above.

Personally, I'd say Big Guns and Heavy Trakks are your friends. The former fit will with a Gretchin heavy army and give you some desperately needed long range firepower. Chuck them behind a defense line with a quad cannon to make them much tougher and able to put out BS 3 anti-air dakka to boot!

Heavy Trakks, if forgeworld is allowed in your area, can replace your Trukks. For like 15-20 more points, your Trukk is now Armour 12 at the front and has a deff rolla! It's pretty much immune to difficult terrain, tougher than a trukk, and hits harder as well. Downside is that its a little slower. If thats an issue, for +30 points over a trukk you can take a Junka - fast, armour 12, deff rolla, 3 big shootas instead of one (can be upgraded to skorchas for free, or various other guns at costs), though you do lose 2 carry capacity.

Every thing but the boys are easily scratch built.

I'm very interested to see how you can scratch build Meganobz easily. It looks like a right pain in the ass, and this is coming from someone who lives and breathes scratch builds and conversions