The game in general

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**ExNoctemNacimur**

Probably another thread on this, but I can't find one, so there.

When I'm playing 40k, I find that the game is very unrealistic and untactical.

I'm not talking about unit-spam or list building, I'm talking about the actual gameplay.

For example: shooting. As a soldier, are you likely to shoot at an Immortal squad extremely far away from you when there's a bunch of marauding Necron Warriors right next door to you?

And close combat units. How come my Khorne Berzekers don't die in about 5 minutes when charging? It's not like there's a gentleman's code to fighting or anything. Recently, when I used a squad of 10 KB with Lord and Bloodfeeder, I killed something like 30 Orks - and that was a bad day for that unit. And when I consolidate, they can somehow change run back to cover behind the Land Raider I put them in? What is this nonsense?

Also, does one really expect an army to sit back whilst their units start dying? The Lord of the Rings system, with the priority and stuff I feel works really really well.

Finally, shooting. What, the bolter, a weapon similar to an assault rifle, can kill 2 soldiers max in one turn? How the hell does that work?

I do enjoy the game, but it just seems a bit . . . weird.

**Evileyes**

ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Probably another thread on this, but I can't find one, so there.

When I'm playing 40k, I find that the game is very unrealistic and untactical.

It is fantastical, but it's still fairly tactical. It's just nothing like the warfare of today. In our time, we have no armour that can reliably stop bullet's killing you. Bulletproof vests hurt like hell, can only stop one or two bullets before needing replacing, and generally only cover the chest. Power armour, cover's everything, and can survive hit's from pretty much anything.

I'm not talking about unit-spam or list building, I'm talking about the actual gameplay.

For example: shooting. As a soldier, are you likely to shoot at an Immortal squad extremely far away from you when there's a bunch of marauding Necron Warriors right next door to you?

If your commander told you to, and you were well disciplined, yes. If you were a guardsman, and your commissar told you to shoot over there, or be shot yourself, you do as your told That -is- tactical.

And close combat units. How come my Khorne Berzekers don't die in about 5 minutes when charging? It's not like there's a gentleman's code to fighting or anything. Recently, when I used a squad of 10 KB with Lord and Bloodfeeder, I killed something like 30 Orks - and that was a bad day for that unit. And when I consolidate, they can somehow change run back to cover behind the Land Raider I put them in? What is this nonsense?

Because they are faster, and stronger, and better armoured, than the ork's. The ork's try and hit them, but each and every time they end up getting an axe to the face, or simply can't chop through the super-powered armour, with a hand-axe.

Also, does one really expect an army to sit back whilst their units start dying? The Lord of the Rings system, with the priority and stuff I feel works really really well.

If they were disciplined, or their commander told them to, they likely would yes. You have to remember while the models "look" like they are standing about, they are actually diving about looking for or getting behind cover, if they are badly armoured, or if they are space marines, bullet's don't scare them too much, especially when it's not specifically targetting them.

Finally, shooting. What, the bolter, a weapon similar to an assault rifle, can kill 2 soldiers max in one turn? How the hell does that work?

They are powerfull. But so is the enemy armour, or the enemy numbers. Or, the enemy might be quick enough to get out of the line of sight most of the time. Or, they might be illusionists, like the eldar, who can appear to be in one place, only to suddenly be behind you ramming a lance up your butt.

I do enjoy the game, but it just seems a bit . . . weird.

Oh it's weird. But super-realism is no fun

**scuddman**

The game is not designed to be tactical, but to visual and heroicly storylike. If you think about it, hth is more destructive than shooting.

Seriously, "drive this leman russ closer so I can use my sword!"

Warhammer Fantasy has become like this too.

**Hargus56**

If you want tactical go play a different game, 40k is more about moving toys and rolling dice than strategy.

**Ailaros**

Yeah, this ^

Also, I'd note that rather the whole point of a game having rules is that they're abstractions - calls to suspend reality - for the purpose of having a game (creating a fantasy). If you want a realistic combat simulator, you don't have very many choices outside of paintball or airsoft. Anything less than this requires you to suspend belief.

**Testify**

It took me about 2 minutes to figure that out when I was like 9 years old.

However it is worth noting that there is strategy in 40k, and a little bit of tactics.

**Powerguy**

Honestly it just sounds like you are struggling with things inherent to turn based systems (i.e basically all non computer based games). All such games require a certain amount of abstraction/imagination to make work, a single turn/phase is an indeterminate length of time.

Of course a soldier will sometimes shoot at something other than the closest target - even ignoring the whole order type situation a good example would be a soldier with a rifle with a tank near them is obviously going to shoot at the infantry following behind it.

I have no idea what you are trying to say with the 'sit back while their units start dying thing'. You are the one in charge of your army (ignoring special rules), so if your army is sitting back you are the one doing that.

Obviously a bolter fires more than two shots at a time, but you assume that in the time period that represents a single shooting phase a single bolter is only going to fire off a limited number of accurate shots.

**beerbeard**

^This.

Turn based games are completely abstract. Anything tabletop is pretty abstract, have you ever played a TT wargame using cardboard counters? Attempts to get around it using things like phases and pulses are just annoying, and don't really improve the games. Yes, it's totally abstract, but not as much as chess, and that is still fun.

**Gangrel767**

It's a game about combat, not a combat simulation.

**Peregrine**

The problem is 40k has the baggage of 25 years of previous editions to deal with, and an update cycle where armies can be completely ignored for multiple editions of the game. Would it be better if 40k went to a system of alternating unit activations? Of course it would. However it would require a complete re-write of the game and every codex, and that's something GW refuses to do. So you're stuck with various weird rules that only exist because that's the way it was done 20 years ago.

**Desubot**

There wouldn’t be enough dice to represent true dakka

**MatrixLurtz**

ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
And close combat units. How come my Khorne Berzekers don't die in about 5 minutes when charging? It's not like there's a gentleman's code to fighting or anything. Recently, when I used a squad of 10 KB with Lord and Bloodfeeder, I killed something like 30 Orks - and that was a bad day for that unit. And when I consolidate, they can somehow change run back to cover behind the Land Raider I put them in? What is this nonsense?

This is because they are genetically engineered killing machines that have turned over their loyalties to the bloody Chaos God of war/rage... I would expect nothing less

**Sigvatr**

You should be throwing your dice at your enemy for every hit his units suffer and in melee, he gets a punch / kick to the face if he gets hit. Each wound caused = a wound caused.

Realism, yo.

**MFletch**

You haven't given reasons why it is untactical. There are a lot of choices now, some very subtle making tactics quite important.

Unrealistic is a bit strange, I feel the current rules try to hard to be cinematic.

Some of the other rules you hint of have been tried and failed. Like being forced to shoot closest unit.

There are better gaming systems out there, for sure. None deals with the vastness of 40k, none as pretty models, or indeed as pretty fluff.
So your complaints are true but inherent and less than they ever have been

Maybe if you realism, you should consider things like how many bullets get fired in warfare at things.
If you want to hit things you fire on semiautomatic and slowly.
The vast majority of bullets are fired on automatic to keep the enemies heads down.

**Niiai**

You find it very unrealistic? A what point where people are worshiping a corpse that might and might not be dead but is still the greatest space wizard who ever lived did you think "Realism, that is what is this games strong suit."

I'd hate to be there when you are telling bedtimes stories to your kids.

**Jihallah**

Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, this ^

Also, I'd note that rather the whole point of a game having rules is that they're abstractions - calls to suspend reality - for the purpose of having a game (creating a fantasy). If you want a realistic combat simulator, you don't have very many choices outside of paintball or airsoft. Anything less than this requires you to suspend belief.

As someone who runs a paintball field- Paintball is NOT a realistic combat simulator. Paintball markers are glorified muskets. It's a smooth bore barrel shooting a (sometimes imperfect) round object. Ballistics, eh

The difference is, we can shoot much faster than a musket. Whilst paintball can be close to combat simulation, In the sense of close combat skirmishes with submachine guns (that don't penetrate anything so even a pine tree's canopy is excellent cover, since the rounds get shredded).

If you want to stimulate combat, join the army. Have fun doing the real things involved in combat. Here I have a picture to inspire you to do so!

You want realism? Go to war. It's for real real- not for play play