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So it says that vect and 9 other models must join him and be embarked on his dias at the start of the game. Now with something like grotesques, grotesques are bulky and count as "2 models for the purposes of transport".

Does this mean that 4 grotesques and another independent character can count as the 9 models to join vect on his dias?

As well, is there any "ask games workshop" anywhere where I could submit this and get an official ruling?

What ruling would you need? The rules here are perfectly clear, unless Grotesques or the Dias have some other rule forbidding them from embarking.

 Mannahnin wrote:
What ruling would you need? The rules here are perfectly clear, unless Grotesques or the Dias have some other rule forbidding them from embarking.

It's not that clear...

But, I don't see why 4 Groteques+Independent wouldn't satisfy the Dias' requirement.

Premise: Transports can carry Infantry.
Premise: Groteques are Infantry.
Conclusion: Transports can carry Grotesques.

Really, it's that simple. Unless there's a specific prohibition somewhere saying that Grotesques can't ride in transports, or limiting Raiders or the Dias specifically to only carrying specific units, and not including the Grotesques.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Premise: Transports can carry Infantry.
Premise: Groteques are Infantry.
Conclusion: Transports can carry Grotesques.

Really, it's that simple. Unless there's a specific prohibition somewhere saying that Grotesques can't ride in transports, or limiting Raiders or the Dias specifically to only carrying specific units, and not including the Grotesques.

Thanks...

...and just to make sure, I double-checked the DE codex (pages 44 and 55). The Dias is treated as a Raider for transport purposes, and can hold up to nine models in addition to Vect. The Raider rules just specify a transport capacity of 10, with no other restrictions. So the only one that applies is the default rulebook rule that only Infantry (and excluding Jet and Jump Infantry) can embark.

Grits can embark, and count as 2 models for transport capacity...

But Vect's rule requires 9 models to be embarked. A Grotesque is a single model, even if it counts as 2 for transport capacity.

Yeah, I think we've missed the OP's point entirely. While Grotesques, by virtue of the "Bulky" USR count as two models for transport capacity, do they count as two models for the purpose of the Dias's special rule? From the Dark Eldar 6th ed. FAQ v1.1:

Q: For Asdrubael Vect to take the Dias of Destruction the Dias must
begin the game with Asdrubael Vect and 9 other models on board. How
does this work? (p55)
A: Before the game starts, Asdrubael Vect will have to join a
squad that is 9 models strong, and they must be embarked upon
the Dias of Destruction when they are deployed.

4 Grotesques and 1 IC are a squad only 5 models strong, so, I'm inclined to say, no, this is insufficient.

Oh, darn.

Okay, yeah, you're right. That does sound like it screws the grotesques. The phrasing of the dias says "MUST", not may. So it requires there to be 9 models embarked in addition to Vect. This is a a more specific thing than transport capacity, for which purpose Bulky makes the Grots count as two models each.

 alienvalentine wrote:
Yeah, I think we've missed the OP's point entirely. While Grotesques, by virtue of the "Bulky" USR count as two models for transport capacity, do they count as two models for the purpose of the Dias's special rule? From the Dark Eldar 6th ed. FAQ v1.1:

Q: For Asdrubael Vect to take the Dias of Destruction the Dias must
begin the game with Asdrubael Vect and 9 other models on board. How
does this work? (p55)
A: Before the game starts, Asdrubael Vect will have to join a
squad that is 9 models strong, and they must be embarked upon
the Dias of Destruction when they are deployed.

4 Grotesques and 1 IC are a squad only 5 models strong, so, I'm inclined to say, no, this is insufficient.

I apologize for it being unclear, this above is my point, the dias rule says specifically "The dias of destruction must begin the game carrying 9 models in addition to vect himself"

So would the "counts as 2 models" fulfill the requirement considering the models must begin the game embarked on the dias?

As for the "must be 9 models" here is the thing, it does not say specifically individual models. As well with the dias rule and bulky("counts as 2 models for the purposes of transport") the unit begins the game embarked, therfore wouldn't the rule be in effect at deployment and therefore fulfill the requirement? The dias is a transport, its rule specifically refers to how it starts the game as a transport, and the bulky rule is for transport capacity. I honestly am in favor of the grots being allowed to do this for one reason, that reason being that the start the gam on the transport, they do not deploy and then embark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As well, the "carrying 9 models in addition..." implies that the models it is carrying do not have to be individual models, but instead must just fill the 9 model capacity in addition to vect.

No need to apologize, we just don't always read good

That being said, the Bulky USR doesn't seem to have any bearing in this situation. What's important here is the order of operations, if you will. The squad that Vect joins must be 9 models strong, and then they must embark upon the Dias. This indicates to me that the unit must be 9 models strong before the Bulky USR would even apply.

The problem with your idea is this, embarking never occurs, the dias' rule specifically states it must "begin the game carrying 9 models in addition to vect himself"

My point is that since they must begin joined to him and satisfy the 9 model ruling, and since the dias rule uses the word "carrying"(which should have been faq'ed to embarked) this makes me feel that any combination of models that equate to 9 models as far as transport capacity is concerned would fulfill the rule.

If you read the FAQ response carefully, it states that Vect must join a unit that is 9 models strong, and they must be embarked on the Dias. This breaks down into 2 separate clauses:

1) Vect must join a unit that is 9 models strong
2)They must be embarked on the Dias

These two stipulations are independent from one another, and must be satisfied independently.

This means that, despite the unit never actually having to embark on the Dias, they must satisfy the conditions of the first clause without resorting to the Bulky USR.

But the problem is that the FAQs use of "9 models strong" is wording used no where else I can find in warhammer. What does 9 models strong mean, or put another way what does 9 models strong refer to? 9 models strong as far as transport capacity? 9 models strong as far as wounds in the squad for leadership tests? 9 models strong as far as individual unit size? I mean, the way the worded the FAQ made it more ambiguous than the initial codex entry.

This is why I was wondering if there is an "ask GW" somewhere, like what wizards of the coast has for magic, a hotline or something for rule FAQs...

I would think the wording "9 models strong" is fairly clear, on it's face, there must be 9 models in the squad. Now, I admit, there is some small amount of wiggle room to interpret that as "9 models strong for the purpose of transport capacity" but I suspect GW would have come right out and said it that way if that's what they meant.

As to your second point, the e-mail address your looking for is Askyourquestion@games-workshop.com, though responses from this are considered "unofficial" both for YMDC discussions and tourney play, and should not be relied upon.

Gah...

Now I'm convinced... no Groties in Vect's ride.

Unfortunately this gw email does not exist anymore, i would really like more opinions on thismatter as gw has a terrible track record for wording raw vs rai stuff, and normally i would wholly agree with wat most are saying. But as 6th edition is out and there is nowhere in the rulebook about unit strength ( other than morale which once again has no effect here because that involves wounds) it just makes it hard to decide what to do here.

I am really on the fence and there is no official way to solve this that i can see....