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Morning!

Just a quick one: In apocalypse, within the 6th edition frameset, can you reserve your entire army?

And if you do, does the opponent win the game at the end of their first turn?

Because last night we had a competitive Apoc evening. The team we were up against opted not to deploy a single thing, going second, So in our entire first turn, nothing on their table.

Then using the stratagem that allows them to bring things in from reserve on turn 1, they popped in half their army, right next to (and effectively into) ours, and blew us away.

When questioned about how in 6th edition, we would win the game immediately if at the end of our turn the opponent had nothing on the table, we were told this rule did not apply to Apocalypse.

And we couldn't argue, because the Tournament Organiser (and general rules guy) was playing in the opponent team.

Is this legit? Or am I just confused (in regards to Apoc rules and 6th ed rules) due to lack of sleep?

Competitive Apocalypse?

Missed the point of Apocalypse, I think you have...mmm?!

Indeed, apoc has no balance and barely any rules the point of it is to have a fun narrative game with huge armies.

Yeah, yeah, I wanted in on the fun, not the prize (as great as it was - it went to the team with the TO in it in the end I think)

We were just surprised that one could reserve an entire army without issue.

There is no real answer as to how Apocalypse and 6th interacts.

It is simply a by-product of how GW does business.
Once you have bought the rules/models for Cities of Death, Planetstrike, Apocalypse or Spearhead GW couldn't care less about how the rules work, especially with a new edition.

My guess would be that you could keep everything in reserve because, while you may be playing in 6th Edition, you are choosing to use a rules supplement and that supplement replaces some of the 6th Edition rules.

 Kharrak wrote:
Morning!

Just a quick one: In apocalypse, within the 6th edition frameset, can you reserve your entire army?

And if you do, does the opponent win the game at the end of their first turn?

Because last night we had a competitive Apoc evening. The team we were up against opted not to deploy a single thing, going second, So in our entire first turn, nothing on their table.

Then using the stratagem that allows them to bring things in from reserve on turn 1, they popped in half their army, right next to (and effectively into) ours, and blew us away.

When questioned about how in 6th edition, we would win the game immediately if at the end of our turn the opponent had nothing on the table, we were told this rule did not apply to Apocalypse.

And we couldn't argue, because the Tournament Organiser (and general rules guy) was playing in the opponent team.

Is this legit? Or am I just confused (in regards to Apoc rules and 6th ed rules) due to lack of sleep?

The opposing team would only lose if at the end of a 'game turn' they had no models on the table, furthermore current rules state you have to have half of your units, rounded down, on the table. Half rounded up 'may' be in reserves.

Lets take for example, a Space Marine army 'all in drop pods.' You take the first turn, you end your turn. Your opponent does not lose. He gets to take his turn, if at least one of his units is on the table by the end of his turn, he would not automatically lose. If he somehow (and very unlikely) managed to mishap 'every one of his deeps striking pods' and 'every one of them went back into reserves or was destroyed' he would then lose due to having nothing on the table.

Now apocalypse may lift the 'half rounded up reserves rule' however this does not change the fact that you have to end a 'game turn' with nothing on the field in order to 'automatically lose,' not a 'player turn.'

If this mechanic did not in fact work this way player one would have a clear advantage over player 2, in the event you could somehow take out all of their units before they were able to go.

In 6th null deployment is impossible without an all drop pod list or by playing as daemons. An all flyer list would auto-lose at the end of the game turn or after both players turn one without the ability to deploy turn one but it is possible to legally build such a list.

In any other army list you'd have to follow the 50% of your units round up rule for reserves. You'd only ignore this rule if the Apocalypse rules say that you can reserve your whole army.

This was a tactic in 5th edition and there are many tacticas written on how to defend through unit placement against deep striking enemies and null deployments. Try searching for castling.

Units that are not set up on the table form a player's 'strategic reserve' These work rather differently to the reserves used in standard missions. In a standard mission the player represents 1he commander on the battlefield, who has little control over when or even if any reserves will be committed to him. In an Apocalypse battle the player represents a higher-level commander, who does have control over the reserves under his command. The following rule tor strategic reserves reflects this important difference.

 Tarrasq wrote:
In 6th null deployment is impossible without an all drop pod list or by playing as daemons. An all flyer list would auto-lose at the end of the game turn or after both players turn one without the ability to deploy turn one but it is possible to legally build such a list.

In any other army list you'd have to follow the 50% of your units round up rule for reserves. You'd only ignore this rule if the Apocalypse rules say that you can reserve your whole army.

This was a tactic in 5th edition and there are many tacticas written on how to defend through unit placement against deep striking enemies and null deployments. Try searching for castling.

Or an all deathwing list, as the terminator armour rule overrides the 50% on the table rule.

II is important to remember that each side will only have the amount of time they bid in which to deploy their armies, any units not deployed when the time limit is reached are left in
strategic reserve (see the box below).

Apocalypse works differently than standard 40K. You should probably discuss the reserves/victory conditions etc before the game anyway, ironing out any questions like this.

Steelmage99 wrote:
Competitive Apocalypse?

That was the first mistake...

Thanks for clearing that up guys.

Honestly, I think this was the first game the TO was running, as his plan was to have two apocalypse games in a row. Winners of the first round would have favourable positions in the final all-player melee. We were to start playing at 10pm (started at 11pm), and he honestly expected us to end playing at 8am. Both games.

Still, thanks all! Glad to know no foul was played in that deployment. Would have liked to have won that $210 GW prize money, though :C

It kind of depends on how you platy Apoc.

To avoid arguements my friends and i pretty much use the main rulebook for apoc games - we just ignore the FOC chart completely.

Not that i wouldn't do the same necessarily were I in his or her shoes, but doesn't having your Tournament organiser (and presumably the arbiter for the event) playing on one of the teams in the tournament sort of bias things by default?

Personally i'd suggest having an impartial 3rd party do that.

As for your question? the Literal answer is 'Whatever the TO decided it is' sadly. In 6th edition they would not be able to do that without losing if following RAW though, for what it's worth.

 Neorealist wrote:
Not that i wouldn't do the same necessarily were I in his or her shoes, but doesn't having your Tournament organiser (and presumably the arbiter for the event) playing on one of the teams in the tournament sort of bias things by default?

Personally i'd suggest having an impartial 3rd party do that.

As for your question? the Literal answer is 'Whatever the TO decided it is' sadly. In 6th edition they would not be able to do that without losing if following RAW though, for what it's worth.

Only if nothing came in by the end of the "game" turn, not player turn. You don't lose for reserving everything, you lose if you have nothing on the board by the end of a game turn.

Maybe nothing to do with the actual discussion but did every man on the other team bought that asset?, since iirc assets only affect the army which bought them, so if only one guy had it only units from his army may deploy on the 1st turn.

If it was a 3 man team that would give you 750 more points on your army which might help counter that fact that there was nothing on the table

Kevin949 wrote: Only if nothing came in by the end of the "game" turn, not player turn. You don't lose for reserving everything, you lose if you have nothing on the board by the end of a game turn.

True, good point.

Ya otherwise demons would HAVE to go first or just lose. Also who in their right mind plays a competitive game of apocalypse? Playing a large game of 40k and being competitive is one thing but a proper apok game is more then just large armies. It's suppose to be about having fun and playing with models that would just rape everything normally with rules that are quite silly at times. If they like the idea of royally pissing of the other guy who bothered to get out all his stuff for a game by all means but really to declare instant victory in a supplement made for fourth edition because some of the rules from the sixth edition get in the way is really going overboard.