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Hey guys,
I haven't played C:SM this edition and wanted to give it a shot with Imperial Fists. I'm trying to be semi-fluffy, but I don't mind changing things.

HQ
Lysander

Librarian
-Terminator Armor
-Storm Bolter

Elites
10 Terminators
-9 Chain Fists
-2 Cyclone Missile Launchers
-Srg w/ Power Axe

Troops
3x 10 Tac Marines
-Flamer
-Lascannon
--Rhino

Fast Attack
Storm Talon
-Typhoon Missile Launcher

Heavy
2x Vindicator

Predator
-Lascannon sponsons

TOTAL = 1995

I'm considering dropping the vindis for Thunderfire Cannon or 2, but not sure. Also not sure if I really need the Librarian.
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks!

The thunderfire cannons will lonely at the back. This isn't the list for them, though they are fluffy I feel.

Storm shield for the librarian. As it keeps him alive longer.
Powerweapons+meltabombs may be needed for the tactical squads. You are stubborn so will never escape cc, if you get charged by a dread the squad will slowly die. If charged by grey knights you will quickly die with no recourse. Against grey hunters and blood angel assault squads slowldy die... you get the idea, fight back a little.

Then drop the pred for a stormtalon, both work better in pairs, both give the needed ranged weapons to your list, the stormtalon wins as it has skyfire. So go for a pair.

I now need to mention things to cut, to make the spending suggestions sound reasonable.
Chainfists are only good against landraiders. How many people park the land raiders by chain fist really? Powerfists will kill most mech in cc for you.(Lysander will kill it by himself.)
I would give the serg. a power weapon. Imagine if you will you get assaulted by a unit and your unit gets challenged. For some reason you want to keep back Lysander, let's not waste his attacks on one model and you do not want to risk the librarian at all, they can only use their powers when alive after all. Well you only have 5++ saves meaning a power armour serg. with power sword could realistically finish you off.
Then other advantage is initiative. Having a few early hits suddenly makes the unit a bigger threat to some key units.

I would go for a missile launcher over the lascannon, it saves a few points. ML is much more flexible. Actually you only needed 40 points by my counting to make the changes I wanted, so keep them

No need for chainfists you'll kill landraiders in assault anyway.

As suggested elsewhere you need more stormtalons.

Id take telepathy on the libby.

Tac squads are too many points for not enough threat. Id only run 2 personally and give them 2 plasmas or 2 meltas with an appropriate heavy weapon to support squad (something that can snap fire so lascannon with plasmas or multimelta with meltas).

Spend the spare points on a third stormtalon.

Are you suggesting only 2 tactical squads at 2000 points?
Or are suggesting getting alternative scoring units?

Just to clarify

Yeah 2 tac squads is fine at 2k as long as there is enough threat in the list.

Thanks for the suggestions and help, guys. I revised my list a bit based on your feedback.

HQ
Lysander

Librarian
-Termi Armor
-Storm Shield

Elites
10 Terminators
-2 Cyclone Missile Launchers
-Srg w/Power Axe

Troops
2x 10 Tactical Marines
-Plasma Gun
-Lascannon
-Srg w/ Power Axe, Melta Bombs
--Rhino

Fast Attack
3x Storm Talon
-Typhoon Missile Launcher

Heavy
2x Vindicator
-Dozer Blades


TOTAL = 1995

I like this. I am convinced that Storm Talons/Vindicators/Predators work far better in pairs, but I'm not sure you need three. I would personally drop one to add another scoring unit and maybe give the Librarian ML:2 (because honestly, who doesn't love invisible terminators?).

If nothing else, use that five extra points on a single chainfist for your terminators. They are fun for helping to ensure you kill a Land Raider in one assault and you have the points to spare.

Buy the army, paint it, and do the Lemon Legion proud.


Edit: Grammar

You need 3 stormtalons because how many flyers everyone else will have.

Id really like to see extra plasma in those tac squads. Drop the power weapons for combiplasmas. I1 power weapons just get challenged out anyway. And you only have to drop 1 power weapon to get both combis. They make a huge difference that turn you are rapid firing that unit you need dead.

If you are running with 2 tac squads, one should be combat squadded on your home objective, while the rest move forward. Don't bother paying points to upgrade the heavy on the moving squad, the free MM/HB/ML should be enough for the one or two shots you are going to get with it. Upgrade the half squad to a razorback. If you are not using the transport space, the guns are a nice buy for just a few points.

Not a big fan of dozer blades.

I'd keep a few chain fists. The 9 from the first list is overkill, but one or two makes for a nice insurance policy. Particularly since you lack any melta, so AV 14 might be tough for you to deal with.

AV 14 might be tough for you to deal with.

Remember S8 can glance AV14 to death (not to mention Lysander at S10). Also due to Necrons there is a lot less AV14 around these days...

 FlingitNow wrote:

AV 14 might be tough for you to deal with.

Remember S8 can glance AV14 to death (not to mention Lysander at S10). Also due to Necrons there is a lot less AV14 around these days...

Lysander does go a long way to help, but I dislike relying on glancing something to death as my primary way of dealing with something. The storm talons will help when they arrive, but they will probably be to late to stop a LR before it delivers it's payload.

10 tac termies with powerfists, on the charge is going to get 30 attacks. 20 will hit a vehicle that moved. One in six of those will glance and do a HP against AV 14. You stand a reasonable chance to put down a LR, but not guaranteed. And that's assuming that you are full strength. If you are in CC with a LR, odds are you just finished up a few rounds of combat with the assault terminators that were inside, so full strength is a big assumption. A chainfist or two will make a huge difference. It's like giving your sergeant's melta bombs. 3 out of 4 games you may never use them. That 4th game, when you are standing over the rapidly cooling wreck that used to be the centerpiece of your foe's army, you think "Those were 5 points well spent"

chriachrias wrote:
Thanks for the suggestions and help, guys. I revised my list a bit based on your feedback.

HQ
Lysander

Librarian
-Termi Armor
-Storm Shield

Elites
10 Terminators
-2 Cyclone Missile Launchers
-Srg w/Power Axe

Troops
2x 10 Tactical Marines
-Plasma Gun
-Lascannon
-Srg w/ Power Axe, Melta Bombs
--Rhino

Fast Attack
3x Storm Talon
-Typhoon Missile Launcher

Heavy
2x Vindicator
-Dozer Blades


TOTAL = 1995

This list will do well now however i suspect in a year or two the 450 points your using on three storm talons will make your list less viable.

Fists are all about siege warfare, so how about using an ADL w Icarus for some general antiflier. Your list at the moment screams terminator domination to me. But how are they going to get there? Walking is fine if rest of your list is brutal gunline, and those vindis do reduce your freedom of manoeuvre.

Would you consider a chapter master in TDA, SS, TH over Lysander? Can use same model, save some points, keep chapter tactics, get orbital strike? Seems to better suit a round of shooting from terms, while Vindis lob VWs of HE.

Of course you need at some point to be able to project that termi deathstar, and gate on libby is the obvious answer.

Ditch two of the Talons, ditch the Vindicators. Take as many melta/combi plasma sternguard in a pod(s) as you can. Have Lysander ride in with a 10 man sternguard squad. Buy an Aegis Defense line with quads too. Put those tacs in pods. After you do all of this, pm me after people start whining about your broken drop fist list.

Please don't follow the advice of the previous 2 posters.

You need your terminators marching into midfield as you do with the rest of the army so taking a 1 shot 25pt gun that stops your terminators moving is not a good idea. So is giving up on S10 hammer eternal warrior and all the other benefits of lysander.

Glancing to death a landraider is the easiest way to deal with them these days. Whilst the right powers on your libby can help (puppet master your opponent's own meltas at his Lr). Don't forget your krak missiles can hurt it too. Plus landraiders will become rarer and rarer. If you had a spare 5 points then sure get a chainfist . But getting combiplasmas on your sergeants will help every game and is far more important.

As for the drop pod list. Yes you can do a good one with lysander but that would mean changing your entire list so there's no point discussing it.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Please don't follow the advice of the previous 2 posters.

You need your terminators marching into midfield as you do with the rest of the army so taking a 1 shot 25pt gun that stops your terminators moving is not a good idea. So is giving up on S10 hammer eternal warrior and all the other benefits of lysander.

Glancing to death a landraider is the easiest way to deal with them these days. Whilst the right powers on your libby can help (puppet master your opponent's own meltas at his Lr). Don't forget your krak missiles can hurt it too. Plus landraiders will become rarer and rarer. If you had a spare 5 points then sure get a chainfist . But getting combiplasmas on your sergeants will help every game and is far more important.

As for the drop pod list. Yes you can do a good one with lysander but that would mean changing your entire list so there's no point discussing it.

He's trying to be fluffy, and is willing to change things. Sternguard are tacticals (WYSIWYG), with a few bits, he's good. Lysander is a god with Sternguard (that's why he's so fluffy in stern drop lists). Why would he run a sub optimum list when he can run one that kicks teeth in? I run a Crimson Fist varient of this (painted up Lysander as Alessio Cortez). I often throw in Pedro and an Honour Guard (yeah! scoring sternguard) for giggles.

Here's what I would do. Its fluffy and fearsome

Lysander

10 Terms (2 CML, 3 CF)

10 Sternguard (2 MG, 2 Combi-M, Sarg w PF)
DP with Locator

10 Sternguard (2 PG, 2 Combi-P, Sarg w PF)
DP with Locator

10 Tacs (PG, MM, Sarg w PF)
DP

10 Tacs (Flame, ML, Sarg w PF)

Thunderfire

Aegis with Quad

2000 points (modifiy tacs as needed for your point needs)



Put Thunderfire and walking combat squaded Tacs with Aegis

Drop Lysander and both Sternguard on an optimal flank attack (combat squad the sternguard not with Lysander)

Use the Locators to bring in Terminators (also combat squaded)... one with CML and Sarg, other with all three CF

Use last pod of Tacs to seize objectives later.

Flyer spam is going to drop off fast in the next 6 months and we're seeing knee-jerk reactions to it on both sides of lists. It will be a fad not a trend... I wouldn't put too many points/$$ into either flyers or skyfire units.

Thats a very meh list I'm afraid with the lack of combis on the sternguard and I don't get why you'd take special weapons on them other than Heavy Flamer.

What I don't really like about your list is that you drop in 20 sternguard unsupported. So your enemy can concentrate entirely on 20 MEQs and at 2k that is not a problem for him. Lysander waits around with the terminators hoping to arrive. Whilst against any flyer heavy list you're in real trouble as long as he has 3 units on the table (because even combat squading you won't kill 3 seperate targets with those Sternguard).

I used to run a DP sternguard list with Pedro in 5th when it was amazing because you could assault in turn 1 too to support the sternguard alphastrike (though it boned by all reserve lists). If you're going to do it then commit to it.

Everyone needs a combi weapon. Pedro/lysander ride in the DPs, take a MoTF and support with a couple of Ironclads in DPs (or at 2k just take duel Force Org with Pedro and Lysander). Support with Stormtalons. Troops are 3 minimum tac squads in Drop pods.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Thats a very meh list I'm afraid with the lack of combis on the sternguard and I don't get why you'd take special weapons on them other than Heavy Flamer.

What I don't really like about your list is that you drop in 20 sternguard unsupported. So your enemy can concentrate entirely on 20 MEQs and at 2k that is not a problem for him. Lysander waits around with the terminators hoping to arrive. Whilst against any flyer heavy list you're in real trouble as long as he has 3 units on the table (because even combat squading you won't kill 3 seperate targets with those Sternguard).

I used to run a DP sternguard list with Pedro in 5th when it was amazing because you could assault in turn 1 too to support the sternguard alphastrike (though it boned by all reserve lists). If you're going to do it then commit to it.

Everyone needs a combi weapon. Pedro/lysander ride in the DPs, take a MoTF and support with a couple of Ironclads in DPs (or at 2k just take duel Force Org with Pedro and Lysander). Support with Stormtalons. Troops are 3 minimum tac squads in Drop pods.

All DP is fine and good, but I don't see the OP heading that route (@ OP, if you do, it's fun!.. my party crashers are more or less that).

If you're unable to put 2 DP on a spot where the enemy can bring less than 3 units to bear on them after you fire, then either you don't use the norm in terrain (4-6 LOS/Cover pieces) or you're just not very good at the whole DS thing.

If you flank (or at least foul LOS with the DP), you can put your 3 units (2 CS, 1 Full squad) on 3 of your foes. Considering the average unit to be about 200 points, you should be able to move 500 ish of his points off the board. I don't call all combi, as in my experiance I don't need it. Alpha strikes don't need to be overkill (AKA burn points). I've found that with AP 3 bolters that can also be poisoned or ignore cover, you don't need to get all over excited and throw on combi everything (save the points).

I also play the fields of fire to my advantage. With some "lock down" forces in one spot and some linebreakers, you can often get the enemy going in two directions. You need to be perceptive enough to take out units that will cause problems later with your 2 DP drop. Plus in a turn or two, you'll be putting those terminators on, and you kinda want to draw enemy units towards the pods anyway.

Maybe my experiance has just been different than yours... but to me (and I play at local tourneys and regularly at 3 different FLGS/club, but not the big GTs... and I don't see the OP asking for a GT list), this list gives some fluff, some flexibilty, isn't redudant, and can (with some careful placement) be that hammer of hurt the IF should be.

It's not a terrible list for casual play but it is dramatically different to what he's doing. With 20 DPing Sternguard (and you'll only have 2 units DS in not 3 and I was talking about against a Flyer list your need to table him on turn 1 because once the flyers arrive you lose with this list) you've invested so much in a DP list you need to commit to it at that point. You can't afford to suicide 600+ points its too big a chunk of your army. So you should either stream line those Sternguard into focussed suicide units or sup[port them with an entire DP list.

Advise him to learn SMs with a list that is suiciding 600+ points isn't a great way for him to start.

I appreciate your guys' help and the different perspectives.

I tried running 2 DPs in 5th edition using Lysander and Sternguard. I'm sure my tactics were a bigger fault than my list, but I wasn't really feeling it. Maybe at some point I'll try it out again, so thanks for the advice. For now I'm going to try out the flyers list FlingitNow is suggesting.

One piece of advice be careful with your stormtalons. With only 2hps they are vulnerable even to ground fire. Make sure they are targeting the key threats. If your opponent has a decent number of flyers you want yours on 2nd. That means flat outing them off the board if they come on first.

 FlingitNow wrote:
If your opponent has a decent number of flyers you want yours on 2nd. That means flat outing them off the board if they come on first.

This. If you come on first, get them as close to the enemy edge/ a corner, as you can. It will save your tail in the long run and can really foul his flyers and limit them for his second turn with them on board.

 FlingitNow wrote:

AV 14 might be tough for you to deal with.

Remember S8 can glance AV14 to death (not to mention Lysander at S10). Also due to Necrons there is a lot less AV14 around these days...

If an army starts to down a land raider with st8 shots then the are already losing. Maybe with necron glancing on 6s being cheap models at least, but even then you are wasting a huge amount of firepower.
The vindicators are going to be handy for the av14. More than handy, they can pretty much auto hit something so big. Then they may as well go for a trick shot where they brush the raider still getting the hit and hit some infantry instead.

If an army starts to down a land raider with st8 shots then the are already losing. Maybe with necron glancing on 6s being cheap models at least, but even then you are wasting a huge amount of firepower.

It doesn't take a huge amount of firepower to glance a Landraider to death with S8 powerfists. In fact it doesn't take any fire power as they are close combat attacks... 10 Terminators including Lysander attack a Landraider it is dead is the point I was making. Which means Chainfists aren't really needed. Can be useful if you have spare points but not worth dropping something useful for.

This may sound very stupid but I have to ask nevertheless. What does "C:" mean?

anatholos wrote:
This may sound very stupid but I have to ask nevertheless. What does "C:" mean?

C:SM
Codex:Space Marines
(aka vanilla marines)

as opposed to

CSM
Chaos Space Marines

 FlingitNow wrote:

If an army starts to down a land raider with st8 shots then the are already losing. Maybe with necron glancing on 6s being cheap models at least, but even then you are wasting a huge amount of firepower.

It doesn't take a huge amount of firepower to glance a Landraider to death with S8 powerfists. In fact it doesn't take any fire power as they are close combat attacks... 10 Terminators including Lysander attack a Landraider it is dead is the point I was making. Which means Chainfists aren't really needed. Can be useful if you have spare points but not worth dropping something useful for.

That does require the enemy to park their land raider in assault range. You may suspect the enemy would assault Lysander's squad before they could do that, given land raiders tend to carry assault units.
I think in that situation you split off lysander and he whacks the raider by himself, as he carries most of the threat.

I think that 9 Chainfists who buddy/buddy with Lysander is far overkill. maybe 3-5 Chainfists max, saving you 30-35 points for something else more useful.

The gate of infinity for the Librarian is a good idea, I might think about what else you could take in his stead, though. Because seriously, if they need to deepstrike, you can put them in reserve, though most games, marching up the front absorbing fire with the Vindicators is ideal for them, while the 150-200 points spent on that librarian can go towards a Thunderfire Cannons, another Tactical Squad, an Ironclad Dreadnought ... just saying. Sometimes I find 2 HQ's is too much of a pointsink for what they add to the army.

Edit: You could take a Whirlwind, too. Just saying, because they're probably my fav heavy tank, the inexpensive underdog :-)