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As the title says why do some regiments that have access to las guns use auto guns? In flesh and iron over half the regiment opts to use an auto gun instead of las guns in the final assault. In redemption corps they proffer to use auto pistols instead of las pistols and in a few Ciaphas cain novels the inquisitor equips her routine with auto guns (although they are normally recruited from the penal legions and are used because there expendable)

now the only pro's i can think of using an auto guns instead of a las gun is that in extremely cold weather las gun power packs don't last as long and and auto guns do not seal the wound it creates and leaves the enemy to bleed out.

In Battle For the Fang the human soldiers of the Fang used a type of autogun (from what I could tell).
Really its just a matter of availiablility, preference, and logistics.

Can't say for sure but I can guess.

Against a lightly armored foe an autogun would do as much and maybe more damage to a human body due to bullet fragmentation. In the rogue trader and dark heresy rule books autoguns and lasguns do the same ammount of damage.

They make more noise

The guardsmen may be more comfortable with them especially if it was a penial legion constructed from low life thugs (whom mostly use autoguns).

Its mentioned in the dark heresy and rogue trader rule books that auto pistols have a quick rate of fire, they do not say the same of las pistols

Sometimes, licensed publications such as the Black Library novels simply portray a different version of 40k than the codices - Redemption Corps and the Ciaphas Cain novels in particular go against a lot of what GW has established.

That being said, there is some room for variation. The lasgun is the one piece of equipment actually considered standard throughout the Imperial Guard, yet as the Codex tells us, there have been times where regiments have been raised even just with swords and bows. As such, it does not sound too far out to consider that the same possibility would exist for autoguns. Needless to say, this would be extremely impractical as the regiment will be unable to use the ammunition normally dispensed by the Munitorum - you can find a 19 megathule chargepack just about everywhere the Imperial Guard operates, but good luck finding that "exotic" 6.24x29mm projectile that you're used to from the world that built your gun when you're thousands of light years away. Not to mention spare parts! This is even more of a hassle than getting replacement swords and arrows for the aforementioned Feral/Feudal World regiments.

A way to explain individual exceptions could be a crisis situation where the Munitorum is unable to secure a sufficient number of lasguns in time, yet the regiment is totally needed right now (perhaps to fight on the very same world that would have otherwise built those lasguns), and so it gets raised with locally produced armaments ... such as autoguns.

Additionally, some individual troopers may simply pick up a weapon as a trophy. The 3E Guard Codex had a picture of a Veteran Guardsman who simply kept an autopistol he found on the battlefield as a sidearm. Since he still has his normal lasgun he shouldn't need a lot of ammo for the pistol, but it's good to have a backup weapon.

Lasguns are often described as being likely to cauterize wounds, which reduces the chance to bleed to death.
Autoguns don't have that problem. Autoguns might also be able to use special ammunition which would be a definite advantage, especialy for smaller, more elite, formations whith access to such ammunition ( Inquisitor's retinue, specialised guard regiments and the like ).

As for the Auto-gun, it has a profile matching the Lasgun exactly in the tabletop game. Same Strength, same non-existing AP. It's just a matter of what your particular world can produce easier and keep supplied. Even lasgun power packs will take damage and run out if you only load them by putting them in a fire etc - it's emergency loading, not a proper load cycle in an electrical receptacle.

In the Eisenhorn Omnibus the inquisitor makes a landing in an area held by Catachan IG troops and the Catachans use autoguns and other gunpowder weapons "because the Orks respect them at least a bit for making noise".

Spetulhu wrote:As for the Auto-gun, it has a profile matching the Lasgun exactly in the tabletop game. Same Strength, same non-existing AP. It's just a matter of what your particular world can produce easier and keep supplied.

Well, the damage profile is similar, but iirc autoguns had a shorter range. No idea if this was changed for 6E. Aside from that, lasguns have the ammunition and maintenance advantage. Autoguns are just cheaper to produce, and they are theoretically able to fire fancy special ammunition.

As for supply chains, usually there just aren't any between a regiment and the world it was raised on. Once they're gone they're gone. Space travel is much too fickle and unpredictable to bank on it. The Vostroyans are said to be one of the very few regiments that actually receive reinforcements from their homeworld, and from what it sounds like that's just replacement troops rather than spare parts and ammunition - which are far easier to acquire from an industrial world nearby the warzone. The entire reason for a minimum of standardisation amongst the Imperial Guard is so that - in theory - any regiment can make a stop at any world and rearm.

I suppose there are ways that allow for exceptions to occur, but these would be very rare cases I'd expect to have a solid explanation for. Such as "there wasn't any time to arm them properly".

Spetulhu wrote:In the Eisenhorn Omnibus the inquisitor makes a landing in an area held by Catachan IG troops and the Catachans use autoguns and other gunpowder weapons "because the Orks respect them at least a bit for making noise".

Ah ... the Abnettverse.

Fluff-wise, autogun rounds have stopping power, which lasguns lack. Autoguns would be useful for dropping foes without outright killing them whereas a lasgun would only inflict raw damage.

So lasguns are great, in the large picture, because they're easier to manufacture, easier to maintain, and have unlimited ammo. On a smaller scale, I could see autoguns being more useful.

For example, while a lasgun is robust, an auto-gun is idiot proof. Give a completely untrained person an auto-gun with a 100-round drum magazine and tell them to point the tube end at the bad guys and pull the trigger. You don't need to train them to reload the weapon, or recharge laspacks, etc.

There's also the practical element to laspack recharging. Lasguns may have infinite ammo, but they only have so much ammo over a certain period of time, whereas with bullets, you can't recharge them, but you do have all of them right now, so if you want to go on a crazy 5 minute rampage, I think the autogun would be better.

And yeah, they're louder. Don't know if that makes much of a difference.

Choice. When do IG guardsmen get any choice?
However, from a regimental perspective at some point a choice was made. I don't know the justification used in flesh and iron, but I can make one up.

Why we choose the autogun by Insurgency Walker.
We choose the autogun because it kills.
It kills much like the lasgun, damage to the vital organs; however it also kills by blood loss.
The autogun attacks the vital fluids of life and spills them out for the enemy to see. Although many of those who have succumbed to the Ruinous Powers have little care for their own welfare it brings some satisfaction knowing that at the end of the day the bounty of our labors have been increased.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:


And yeah, they're louder. Don't know if that makes much of a difference.

In close combat situations the muzzle blast from short barreled rifles can have a disorienting effect like a flash bang grenade, but that wouldn't be a normal guardsman weapon.

A lasgun is superior to an autogun in everything but rate of fire, it's standard issue to Imperial Guard unless there's a technological/logistical issue. Keep in mind that some regiments exist equipped with muskets and pikes. They get what they can get.

The lasgun just seems to be the all around easy to use, reliable, and rechargeable option that the Imperium went with way back when STCs were being made. Forge worlds have been pumping them out for 10,000 years and making them available to troops around the galaxy. I don't think lasguns jam and have little recoil either making them easier to learn to use. Having a few different kinds of power cell "clips" around is also easier to keep up with and use than having numerous calibers of slug based weapons that you have to manually load. I would think you could carry many times more shots and reloads for less weight with lasguns as well. That's my take from readying lots of BL books and Dark Heresy sourcebooks.

You all pointed out that they are louder. In the final Last Chancers book where they go to Armageddon, Kage meets a Steel Legion guy who tells him that they prefer autoguns because the Orks do not respect the relatively quiet whip-crack of lasguns but when under fire from autoguns will retreat more often because for Orks, louder means more powerful.

 Sencho wrote:
The lasgun just seems to be the all around easy to use, reliable, and rechargeable option that the Imperium went with way back when STCs were being made. Forge worlds have been pumping them out for 10,000 years and making them available to troops around the galaxy. I don't think lasguns jam and have little recoil either making them easier to learn to use. Having a few different kinds of power cell "clips" around is also easier to keep up with and use than having numerous calibers of slug based weapons that you have to manually load. I would think you could carry many times more shots and reloads for less weight with lasguns as well. That's my take from readying lots of BL books and Dark Heresy sourcebooks.

Lasguns do jam (somehow) and have to be maintained similar to an autogun.

In 'The Guns of Tanith' Autoguns are special-issue to deal with certain foes - the Loxatl - and are given 50-round drum mags with AP and hi-ex rounds. They can fire on full auto, which most lasguns can't; and yes, as has been said many times, the problem is supply. SO much more supply intensive to use autoguns, but everything is in the Imperium's arsenal somewhere.

Basically, specialist ammo, local availability when the unit founds (some worlds can't make lasguns, but they can make enough autogun ammo for a 10-year-campaign), and also, you can put a silencer on an auto-weapon. You can't on a lasweapon.

Plenty reasons!

If i recall correctly in one story a sniper has a autogun version because it doesnt betray his position with the lasbolt. Could be that you can be more stealthy with autoguns.

Boneville wrote:
If i recall correctly in one story a sniper has a autogun version because it doesnt betray his position with the lasbolt. Could be that you can be more stealthy with autoguns.

I'm not so sure about lasers being less stealthy. By virtue of being a laser, a lasbolt would only be seen if it passed through a medium that dispersed the beam. Smoke or fog being good examples. Light is also soundless.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

I'm not so sure about lasers being less stealthy. By virtue of being a laser, a lasbolt would only be seen if it passed through a medium that dispersed the beam. Smoke or fog being good examples. Light is also soundless.

You can suppress the noise of an SP weapon's report, and the bullets can be made subsonic so as to only make sounds when they impact, as with modern weaponry. A Las-weapon either superheats or ionises the air between the weapon and the target (someone correct for which please) which creates a loud sound, the distinctive crack of las-weaponry as mentioned in all sorts of fluff, and in order to have a lethal energy transferral, you are going to mess up the air between the weapon and the target.

Anyway, that's the 40K theory, which is why you can buy silencers for SP weapons in Dark Heresy, but not for Las weaponry.

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:In the final Last Chancers book where they go to Armageddon, Kage meets a Steel Legion guy who tells him that they prefer autoguns because the Orks do not respect the relatively quiet whip-crack of lasguns but when under fire from autoguns will retreat more often because for Orks, louder means more powerful.

And that's why all of GW's Steel Legion miniatures and their own Codex have them wearing lasguns. Even the specialised Veteran Ork Hunter teams.

Oh well. Different authors, different versions of the setting.

Squidmanlolz wrote:Lasguns do jam (somehow) and have to be maintained similar to an autogun.

If that's referring to the Dark Heresy rules, I'm not sure if I'd take that literally. Aside from it just being yet another interpretation of the setting (that clashes with a lot of what GW has established). They've always been presented as pretty much fool-proof, and even though I'd agree that autoguns are easy to use, I'd say that goes even more for las weapons.

Insurgency Walker wrote:Light is also soundless.

I recall it being said that lasguns do give off an audible "crack" when they shoot - at least in GW's world. Another reason why I don't buy the "autoguns vs Orks" idea ... aside from me seriously doubting anyone would keep statistics about that, that to even find out about it the regiments would have to have been issued lasguns without that reason already, and that IG heavy bolters and heavy stubber would put any autogun to shame anyways.

Just like me to forget 25 years of fluff...even while in the middle of reading the Guant's Ghosts books for the first time.

But that reminds me of something.
I can easily believe a group of guardsmen believing that the autogun is better for fighting *insert alien race here* because they were told it was so.

To quote from the uplifting primer about Orks "they are considerably weaker that the average man,".

It's sometimes used as a plot device to drive home the fact that this particular IG regiment or PDF is on a back-woods agri-world or has had supply lines cut-off or doesn't otherwise have access to fancy Lasgun technology.

IIRC, in the old inquisitor RPG (and maybe in dark heresy) there were some types of armor that could actually deflect las bolts. For this reason, a solid slug weapon may be preferable.

 Lynata wrote:
And that's why all of GW's Steel Legion miniatures and their own Codex have them wearing lasguns. Even the specialised Veteran Ork Hunter teams.

Oh well. Different authors, different versions of the setting.

And in this case The Last Chancers makes more sense than the GW fluff does.

Also, the Ordos Xenos and presumably other organizations make it part of their job to learn about Xenos. "Orks equate loudness to power" is a very basic facet of Ork society. So reasoning that autoguns would be more effective against them makes perfect sense. And really... Armageddon was seriously pressed by Ghazghkuull's first Waaagh!, it isn't unreasonable at all for them to discover the effectiveness of an autogun compared to a lasgun when they fell back on autoguns due to lack of ammo.

Also, heavy bolters and heavy stubbers are more expensive and less numerous than autoguns. Your random trooper won't have either.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:IIRC, in the old inquisitor RPG (and maybe in dark heresy) there were some types of armor that could actually deflect las bolts. For this reason, a solid slug weapon may be preferable.

The Reflective trait in Inquisitor results in the armour having a protective value 1d6 higher against las weapons. The stuff is so rare that you'd want neither las- nor auto weapons when fighting whoever actually owns a suit like that, though. It'd make sense for special formations such as an Inquisitor's troops, but personally I wouldn't expect the Imperial Guard to swap weapons every time they fight an enemy like Space Marines.
(and even there the Reflective armour is also Ablative, meaning it stops having this quality after the first one or two hits by any weapon)

Void__Dragon wrote:And in this case The Last Chancers makes more sense than the GW fluff does.

Well, if you think so ... I don't agree, but the entire franchise is one where focus determines interpretation, as ADB once put it.

Void__Dragon wrote:Also, the Ordos Xenos and presumably other organizations make it part of their job to learn about Xenos.

Sure. I could totally see Inquisition operatives doing this, I just don't buy the IG stuff.

Void__Dragon wrote:Also, heavy bolters and heavy stubbers are more expensive and less numerous than autoguns. Your random trooper won't have either.

The random trooper will have sufficient backup by these weapons. Heavy weapon teams and vehicles work in concert with infantry.

[edit] Addendum:

It kills much like the lasgun, damage to the vital organs; however it also kills by blood loss.

I think the effect of a las bolt impact may be underestimated by many players. GW mentioned that, on impact, they create a localised explosion due to the extreme heat translated to the impact area, in turn resulting in expansion of the material thus affected.

I just stumbled over a post on how it works in the Battletech universe, and it seems quite similar there. One of their lead designers recently explained the effects in a quite graphic manner, and it actually sounds rather plausible:
"In many of the descriptions I find when we refer to laser small arms fire, the result is a flash explosion. If the target is lucky, and is only grazed, clothing may be scorched and a neat, piercing flesh burn may occur, but contact with an internal organ tends to be explosive because of the effects of hyper-rapid heating of a fluid-filled area with no good outlet. Shots to the head, for instance, or dead-on torso hits, tend to result in organ failure via explosion, usually "venting" either out through the point of contact, through an exit wound behind it, or both."

Now, obviously that's a different franchise, yet GW has essentially held the same position, if you look at the scan of the 3rd edition rulebook above.

 Lynata wrote:
Sometimes, licensed publications such as the Black Library novels simply portray a different version of 40k than the codices - Redemption Corps and the Ciaphas Cain novels in particular go against a lot of what GW has established.

That being said, there is some room for variation. The lasgun is the one piece of equipment actually considered standard throughout the Imperial Guard, yet as the Codex tells us, there have been times where regiments have been raised even just with swords and bows. As such, it does not sound too far out to consider that the same possibility would exist for autoguns. Needless to say, this would be extremely impractical as the regiment will be unable to use the ammunition normally dispensed by the Munitorum - you can find a 19 megathule chargepack just about everywhere the Imperial Guard operates, but good luck finding that "exotic" 6.24x29mm projectile that you're used to from the world that built your gun when you're thousands of light years away. Not to mention spare parts! This is even more of a hassle than getting replacement swords and arrows for the aforementioned Feral/Feudal World regiments.

A way to explain individual exceptions could be a crisis situation where the Munitorum is unable to secure a sufficient number of lasguns in time, yet the regiment is totally needed right now (perhaps to fight on the very same world that would have otherwise built those lasguns), and so it gets raised with locally produced armaments ... such as autoguns.

Additionally, some individual troopers may simply pick up a weapon as a trophy. The 3E Guard Codex had a picture of a Veteran Guardsman who simply kept an autopistol he found on the battlefield as a sidearm. Since he still has his normal lasgun he shouldn't need a lot of ammo for the pistol, but it's good to have a backup weapon.

Medieval world usually treats bows and swords as ruling caste symbol. the Infantrymen are more likely to be either Brettonian-style MAA or Hoplites or Pikemen , or if Pike and shot formation is used. some 'regiments' might be initially raised to fight with Pikemen in addition to Crossbows (or maybe Arquebuses or Muskets) for those drafted men, officiers or special forces may use longbow (which by medieval and renaissance is still considered deadly in a trained hand, superior to even muzzle loading firearms of some advancec medieval worlds), if one said that these medieval troops will be re-equipped with lasguns. the first units to get lasgun training will be pikemen, followed by either crossbowmen and 'handgunners' (or the training priority may be reversed. Pikemen are excel in melee close formation, they are need to familiar with laser weapons, basic shooters can familiar themselves with lasguns with ease. they, however need a serious pikemen training so they can effectively use bayonets in a real fight.

Hey, I was just citing the Codex fluff.

The text did not specify what worlds such regiments hail from or how they look like in detail - may as well be something like the Roman Legion. But I would generally refrain from assuming standards for various worlds just because that was how it's been for medieval Earth (and even here, there were considerable differences depending on the region you'd look at).

Anyways and ultimately, such regiments would be the exception from the one norm the Imperial Guard has - the lasgun.

uh, if it was foggy, or if the atmosphere was full of light refracting particals, then the autogun would be a more practical choice than the las gun.

since las gun powerpacks can be re-charged easily (by being thrown into a fire according to come fluff) and bullets need to be manufacted, in the long run I think a las-gun (if available) is prefereable.

 Derrick Moore wrote:
uh, if it was foggy, or if the atmosphere was full of light refracting particals, then the autogun would be a more practical choice than the las gun.

since las gun powerpacks can be re-charged easily (by being thrown into a fire according to come fluff) and bullets need to be manufacted, in the long run I think a las-gun (if available) is prefereable.

1. so Lasgun powerpack is either Photoelectric or Thermoelectric cell, does the same applies to both Laspistol and Lascannon power cells?
2. Tell me more about Autopistol. Mordian sarges still use the weapon and it looks ALOT like UZI. does it has a capability of an SMG? does modern PDW thing works that way too?

Autoguns have a higher rate of fire, an intimidation factor, and stoppin-powah.

That being said, i dont think individual Guardsmen have any choice in the weapon they're given.

Lasguns have more ammo, and are generally more sustainable.

 Lone Cat wrote:


1. so Lasgun powerpack is either Photoelectric or Thermoelectric cell, does the same applies to both Laspistol and Lascannon power cells?
2. Tell me more about Autopistol. Mordian sarges still use the weapon and it looks ALOT like UZI. does it has a capability of an SMG? does modern PDW thing works that way too?

1. las-weapon powerpacks are just frikkin big batteries. Bigger and better for bigger and better weapons. Depending on the weapon, they have more capacity and more shots. From Dark Heresy, a standard Guard laspistol clip has capacity for 30 standard shots; a standard guard lasrifle clip has capacity for 60 standard shots.

2. Autopistols are submachineguns (or machine pistols, if you want to get fussy) that fire caseless solid ammunition. Autoguns are Assault rifles that fire caseless solid ammunition.

The smallest autopistol is roughly a skorpion submachinegun or equivalent that fires caseless ammo.


In FFG's games, you can get various different forms of ammo for Solid Projectile (SP) weaponry, so you could in theory have the high-velocity armor-piercing rounds of a modern PDW. But essentially, the answer is yes; an autopistol is a modern submachinegun with caseless ammo. Autopistols in the 40k setting are all capable of Full Auto fire, and generally have quite small calibres* (9mm or less) unless specified to be different. If it's only semi-auto or single action, it's a Stub Gun. If it's a large calibre Stub Gun, it's a Hand Cannon, although that term is only used in FFG's games and Black Library. Stub weaponry doesn't really exist on the 40k battlefield any more, unless it's a Heavy Stubber (Medium or Heavy Machine Gun in modern parlance).

hope that helps.


*small for 40k, that is - bolt pistol shells are 0.75in calibre (19mm!)