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Something I brought up with my friends the other day about overwatch..

It says in the overwatch rules that all weapons performing overwatch must be in range... So say i have like 5 lines of 6 wide boys (total of 30). and the back 3 arent in range of overwatch (with their sluggas), so they cant overwatch..

And yet, if a flamer were that far away, and definatly out of range, they can overwatch. So.... Enemies run into flamer range, but not bullet range (even thought flamer range is less)? That doesnt make sense...

That how the rules work. Sometimes the rules are counter intuitive, you'll get used to it. Some situations are odd, just don't think about it too much. Its really not worth it.

Welcome to the abstract nature of 40k.

You could do any number of things to justify it to yourself. Maybe the flamer troops are all trained to rush forward to meet assaults or something to that effect.

But really, there are many things rules wise that don't make a lick of sense. Just accept it. Was their an actual rules question? Or were you just noting the weirdness?

Perks for being a template weapon and not needing to hit on 6's I suppose.

Flamers good

Rules question? i was hoping that i'd somehow read it wrong... Guess we're gonna have a house rule on this one...

Dragonzord wrote:
It says in the overwatch rules that all weapons performing overwatch must be in range.

I can not find this entry, someone please give me a page number/directions to this passage.

Thanks

-DR.

 DeathReaper wrote:

I can not find this entry, someone please give me a page number/directions to this passage.

Thanks

-DR.

The rules for Overwatch on page 21.

p34, Resolve Overwatch

...uses all the normal rules for range, LoS, cover saves and so on


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I meant 21 - sheesh

I thought he meant no one could overwatch because 3 were out of range.

Nevermind Carry on.

Dragonzord wrote:
Rules question? i was hoping that i'd somehow read it wrong... Guess we're gonna have a house rule on this one...

Why?

Just because you don't like a rule doesn't mean you should change it to suit your whim. At that point you arn't playing 40k anymore. Rather you're playing "GakImadeuphammer"

This isn't a case of a rule not working(in which case you would be within reason to house rule it) but rather a case of a rule not working how you would like it to.


Nothing's stopping you from doing this, but it is an unnecessary change.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Dragonzord wrote:
Rules question? i was hoping that i'd somehow read it wrong... Guess we're gonna have a house rule on this one...

Why?

Just because you don't like a rule doesn't mean you should change it to suit your whim. At that point you arn't playing 40k anymore. Rather you're playing "GakImadeuphammer"

This isn't a case of a rule not working(in which case you would be within reason to house rule it) but rather a case of a rule not working how you would like it to.


Nothing's stopping you from doing this, but it is an unnecessary change.

Its not that its not working like I want it to. It doesnt make any sense, thats the entire point. So the flamers that are definatly out of range, can shoot and hit, but the pistols that are out of range, cant shoot or hit? What? Wheres the logic?

In the part for wall of death, its assumed that the enemies are running into the flamers, are they dodging the bullets while running into fire? What? Why isnt it assumed also that they're also running into the range of the normal weapons?

edit: Thats saying that the flamers will only hit your own units because they're as far out of range as the pistols are, and yet the flamer can hit, but flamers arent allowed to shoot...

Spray burning prometheum over your own unit, so that the enemy has to run through it to engage your unit.

It's called "wall of death" because the flamers don't actually hit the enemy. They just spray a constant gout of flame for the enemy to run through as they assault

Yea but they still take the damage if they don't reach.

Dragonzord wrote:


Its not that its not working like I want it to. It doesnt make any sense, thats the entire point. So the flamers that are definatly out of range, can shoot and hit, but the pistols that are out of range, cant shoot or hit? What? Wheres the logic?

Are you new to 40K? There have always been rules in 40k that just don't make sense, that's the nature of abstraction. Like intervening units granting cover saves but being immune to the shots they are in the way of.

Its going to be pretty rare i woudl have though, seeing as max charge range is 12".

i suppose the only time you would realyl see it is if you charges unit that had 6" range guns (can't think of any off the top of my head) - if you charges a BIG squad where some guys at the back (as in this case) woudl be out of range.

13"

Melta pistols, aka Infernus pistols, are 6" range

 HoverBoy wrote:
Yea but they still take the damage if they don't reach.

The rulebooks justification for this is "We assume they were driven back by the flames"

Well, I always played it like fantasy, where they get fired at, and it's assumed they simply fall back once the bullets start flying.

Dragonzord wrote:
Its not that its not working like I want it to. It doesnt make any sense, thats the entire point. So the flamers that are definatly out of range, can shoot and hit, but the pistols that are out of range, cant shoot or hit? What? Wheres the logic?

In the part for wall of death, its assumed that the enemies are running into the flamers, are they dodging the bullets while running into fire? What? Why isnt it assumed also that they're also running into the range of the normal weapons?

edit: Thats saying that the flamers will only hit your own units because they're as far out of range as the pistols are, and yet the flamer can hit, but flamers arent allowed to shoot...

Dude, seriously, don't be discouraged to make your own house rules and play them with your friends.
Its not cheating, its not circumventing the rules and you're no worse a player for it.

Not every game has to be by the book.

Just remember that a house rule works only between consenting players, so if you don't like the rule fine change it, but talk to your opponent before the game, explain your case and give them the option.

Games Workshop encourages house rules because they make references to them in their rulebooks, so that's an endorsement and if a house rule makes the game 'flow' better or make more sense to you, then great because you should have more fun then. It's only a game, you don't have to go 'by the book' if the other guy is cool with it.

 Praxiss wrote:
Its going to be pretty rare i woudl have though, seeing as max charge range is 12".

i suppose the only time you would realyl see it is if you charges unit that had 6" range guns (can't think of any off the top of my head) - if you charges a BIG squad where some guys at the back (as in this case) woudl be out of range.

Ya, but that doesn't mean the flamer guy will always be in the front where the assault is coming from. You could easily string out a typical unit over 10" or more meaning that there's a potential for a flamer to be "at least" 22 inches away.

Triarch praetorians have 6" range guns.

It make perfect sense that some of your guys might not get to shoot. I do admit that the idea of flamers still getting to doesnt make as much sense but hey maybe they already set the ground on fire between them and the bad guys before moving where ever they are. Several armies can field units with guns that can be massive in number and would you like the idea of every one of my 50 conscripts get to shoot your charging unit when they are stretched from one side of the battlefield to the other in a straight line?

Or maybe the flamer blocked the vision of some of the firing models. A big jet of flame is kinda hard to see through.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:
Its going to be pretty rare i woudl have though, seeing as max charge range is 12".

i suppose the only time you would realyl see it is if you charges unit that had 6" range guns (can't think of any off the top of my head) - if you charges a BIG squad where some guys at the back (as in this case) woudl be out of range.

Ya, but that doesn't mean the flamer guy will always be in the front where the assault is coming from. You could easily string out a typical unit over 10" or more meaning that there's a potential for a flamer to be "at least" 22 inches away.

Triarch praetorians have 6" range guns.

Or you can easily have your flamers not in the front rank (maybe you were outflanked) and normally you wouldn't be able to fire because the template would hit your guys - with Overwatch, no such problem, I'm not complaining mind you, I loves my flamers

Snapshot wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:
Its going to be pretty rare i woudl have though, seeing as max charge range is 12".

i suppose the only time you would realyl see it is if you charges unit that had 6" range guns (can't think of any off the top of my head) - if you charges a BIG squad where some guys at the back (as in this case) woudl be out of range.

Ya, but that doesn't mean the flamer guy will always be in the front where the assault is coming from. You could easily string out a typical unit over 10" or more meaning that there's a potential for a flamer to be "at least" 22 inches away.

Triarch praetorians have 6" range guns.

Or you can easily have your flamers not in the front rank (maybe you were outflanked) and normally you wouldn't be able to fire because the template would hit your guys - with Overwatch, no such problem, I'm not complaining mind you, I loves my flamers

I hear ya. The despair-teks for necrons makes my opponents think real hard if they REALLY want to assault whatever unit they're in with.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That how the rules work. Sometimes the rules are counter intuitive, you'll get used to it. Some situations are odd, just don't think about it too much. Its really not worth it.

You are my hero.
Have an exalt!

Its really not that counter intuitive. The special template rule is called Wall Of Death for a reason. It simply represents the flamer troops keeping a constant finger on the trigger or setting the ground the enemy has to charge through on fire, thus creating a "Wall" of fire/napalm/whatever that some of the enemy have to pass through.

Its not that the template weapon is shooting outside its range, its more an abstract representation of the enemy charging into the flames.

But again, enemies can charge into flames, but not into bullets because its ok to assume that flames hit, but not to assume that bullets do coz theyre out of range..? Thats the whole point

Because bullets dont burn long after you have stopped firing them. If you fire at something out of range the shot becomes non-lethal after a point but oil soaked ground burns for a very, very long time. belive me....
I know.....

`I don't know if you have ever stood by a flamer or similar when it goes off, but trust me, it doesn't have to cover you, to hurt you. 20 feet away from the actual flame itself, is still really damn hot. 10 foot away from the flames, and you are still gonna get burned without armour. 5 foot away from the flames it's gonna get uncomfortable even in super-special shiny armour. Even if it's just seeing that a gout of flame is coming out from the centre of a mob you are charging, and is about to swing your way, is enough to make you stagger.