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Hi guys!

Bit of background; i'm new to playing 40K but not new to the 40K universe, love the XIX Legion and am starting out with a true to doctrine Raven Guard force. But need some advice from you experienced commanders out there!

The whole intended point of my force is to infiltrate and secure vital locations and objectives, followed by nimble supporting units to bolster these positions. Primary focus is objectives - not walk over to the other guy and rip his head off! so minimal use of terminators and dreadnoughts. I want strategy over strength.

I've been looking into the extensive use of scouts, assault squads and skimmer/flyers. Maybe infiltrating with scouts to take a position, home in the stormtalon, assault squad or landspeeder via deep strike and dig in! Using the mobility available to zip between objectives where needed or in and out of cover.

If you were going to use this tactic how would you go about it? Remembering this is the Raven Guard - not just a vanilla marine force. Also, what would be the best weaponry for scouts in this role? Would you take bolters, shotguns or sniper rifles?

Hey Mick very cool theme!

Ok first problem you have with holding objectives in the game is troops surviving. This is made easier if your opponent is scared of a bunch of terminators a landraider is driving into the centre of their deployment zone!

Instead you will need to rely on redundancy because troops get hammered when the opponent can turn their full attention to them, particularily if you are expecting troops to 'dig in' and hold an objective.

Think less scirmish t the forward edge of two armies scouting forward but rather a small part of a big main battle the Ravenguard has joined if that makes the listbuilding easier. Even Ravenguard have terminator suits in the chapter armoury for when the situation requires.

Ok so a list.

Firstly SM troops are not going to do it alone. You are reliant on bolters and even using chapter tactics will get pushed off. You need local counter assault as well as mutual support.

How about four tac squads in pods, a scout bike squad with locator beacon and two assault squads with TH/SS and either two flamers or two plasma pistols, with both assault squads led by an IC in jump pack? Your probably looking around 1750 points and to be honest i would be looking to hold two objectives at games end to opponents one or nil.

I played a light infantry marine force with 5 tac squads and two dev squads wirh MLs and PCs in clash of titans 2011 and found no elites very challenging. Trialled no elites, just assault marines, at Lords of Terra 2010, but used tanks, and did well.

The path you are on is awesome and you will have bucket loads of fun, great games and ample challenge, you will lose games but develop as a general.

Like your approach and wished there was more like it in the hobby. Bravo.

Thanks for your advice Aurora!

It probably wont roll that smoothly

Be aware a single piece of armour gets caned quickly. Long fangs, prism cannons, oblits etc

I would actually suggest lots of bodies instead.

Regarding scouts there is nothing 'wrong' with sniper scouts and perhaps scout bikes only being on the board start turn 1, just be aware if your enemy deploys in force and goes first there will not be much left of those initial elements, including maybe your scout bike locator when you want to start dropping pods.

Final suugestion is create a struggle somewhere away from a tac weak point, even using tac squads as bait. So long as they tie down your opponents main effort the critical turns 2 to 4 you can pull out minor victories and draws even if your army effectively gets tabled.

Thematically I'd break your list into two parts. The mobile recon part, and the deep strike reinforcements.

Scouts are going to be the core of the first part.

A unit of snipers with camo cloaks to camp your home objective
A squad with a BP/CCW shotgun mix, locator beacon aggressively deploys forward.
Scout bikers with some AGLs, Cluster mines, and a second beacon.

Assault marines, land speeders, and conventional bikes could also be part of this force.

Then you have the boys chilling back on the strike cruiser waiting for the call. I'd probably go with 3 drop pods. One should be a tactical squad. You have two troop picks on the board to try to claim objectives with the scouts. This gives you a third, which should cover you for 1,500 point games. If you go 2k, I'd add another. The other two pods are going to drop first turn and hammer whatever you got your beacons near. Put something mean in them; I'd go with a dreadnought and sternguard squad. A small unit of terminators would also fit here.

I don't normally recommend them, but if you are going to have locator beacons aggressively deployed, you might want to try out vanguard vets. Choosing what goes in your FA slots is going to be a little rough unless you go to 2k and double FOC. It might be worth taking a captain on a bike, just to get one squad of regular bikers as troops. My first 3 FA picks would probably be scout bikes, assault marines, and then a storm talon or landspeeder squadron (the 4th would be the other).

Drop pod assault is very effective. I'd advise against 1 piece of armor, and definitely against a dreadnaught. They're squishy, and as it's the only AV unit on the table it'll get downed very fast. Without them you're just letting your opponent's anti-armor effectively go to waste. I use this idea when building lists. I normally bring a lot of fliers to games, seeing the meta change at my FLGS to more AA, I occasionally throw in heavy tanks rather than fliers and laugh at all the wasted points on AA.

You need to build in redundancy. I know it's not an exciting way to do stuff, but without more than one way of performing a task, chances are you won't get it done. It also means that your opponent can't use his specialised weapons on taking out the one unit they're good against, they'll have to focus one down, or split fire which is less effective. Now I can't tell you how to do this - I've never designed (what are essentially) vanilla marine lists. I'm sure you can think of ways though!

Have you thought about bikes?

I'm painting up a bike captain and a couple of full-sized units of bikes (counting as troops) for my Ravenguard army. The T5 and continuous jink save make them more durable than tac squads, and much more durable than scouts--especially outside of cover. And they're much more mobile and have more firepower than a tac squad for only about 50 points more per full-sized, transported unit (I'm planning on 2 plasma guns, the MM attack bike, and the sergeant with just meltabombs).

Unlike drop pod troops, bikes have mobility throughout the game. I've played all-dropping/infiltrating Ravenguard, and the problem is that you either win the game big by turn 3, or you whiff and get outmaneuvered because all your mobility--especially terminators--is gone once you drop.

Assault marines, sadly, aren't what they used to be. They need to assault to kill things, but they can't beat Space Wolves or Blood Angels in a 1 to 1 fight, and GKs will just slaughter them in close combat. They're really only good now as an anti-horde (with flamers) and anti-vehicle (krak grenades and sgt meltabombs) fire brigade that avoids any kind of fight with other marines.

Thanks for the great feedback guys! I've pondered over your posts and been to the GW store in town a few times now. I like the idea behind using bikes - but the models just aren't for me. Besides i think they're more White Scars that Raven Guard, i want sneaky sneaky melta in the back tactics.

I really appreciate your feedback guys, it's a lot of needed help and input. I've finally put a 1500pts list together - i did attempt to incorporate both my ideas of what a Raven Guard force should involve, and your suggestions.

So here goes, what do you think?

HQ
Shadow Captain Kayvaan Shrike 195pts (Joins Vanguard Veterans)

ELITES
5x Terminator Assault Squad 200pts
Thunder Hammers, Storm Shields
5x Sternguard Veteran Squad 135pts
3x Combi-plasma, Melta bombs
5x Sternguard Veteran Squad 135pts
3x Combi-plasma, Melta bombs

TROOPS
5x Scouts 120pts
Sniper rifles, Camo cloaks, Missile launcher, Melta bombs, Teleport homer
5x Scouts 120pts
Sniper rifles, Camo cloaks, Missile launcher, Melta bombs, Teleport homer
5x Scouts 95pts (In Landspeeder Storm)
Bolt pistols, Combat blades, Melta bombs, Teleport homer
5x Scouts 95pts (In Landspeeder Storm)
Bolt pistols, Combat blades, Melta bombs, Teleport homer

FAST ATTACK
5x Vanguard Veteran Squad 250pts
Thunder hammer, 4x Power axes, Jump packs, Melta bombs
Landspeeder Storm 65pts
Multi melta
Landspeeder Storm 65pts
Multi melta

1495pts

Notable features;
Chapter tactics (Fleet), See but remain unseen, Camo cloaks, Teleport homers, Thunder hammers, Power Axes, Heroic intervention, Special issue ammunition – to name a few.

This list looks pretty good actually. Lots of land speeders means some will survive, though one of us has figured the cost a Speeder with Multi-Melta wrong, and I'm hoping it's not me. Two things to think about though, your Sernguard have no mobility, and will likely be outmaneuvered. Second, and I could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure that Vanguard Vets with an attached IC, can't use their Heroic Intervention, which kind of makes them useless. I don't have my 'dex in front of me right now so you may want to double check that.

Think you're the one that's confused? I checked up on your points and this is what i found.

A Landspeeder Storm is 50pts. You can replace it's heavy bolter with a multa-melta for 15pts. It's the scout version - not to be confused with the regular version. It can also carry 5 scouts with a useful melta bomb.

The Sternguard Vets are my rapid reaction teams. They'll deep strike into battle with the help of the scout's teleport homers. I'm under the impression that they have the deep strike rule.

Your completely right about the Vanguard Vets. It clearly states, 'This ability cannot be used if an independent character has joined the Vanguard Veteran squad'. No idea how i missed that. So that kind of throws a spanner in the works! Do you think i should replace them?

Mick.

Slightly off topic but there is a FW character who makes your.assault squads troop-choice: Shadow Captain Korvydae.

This might help you with your tactics and list-building.

I have considered using him because he's a bit of a beast!

But i don't think i'll be using assault marines as scoring units. I consider them as mobile flanking units. Especially if kitted out for close combat. I instead intend on using scouts as the objective takers, snipers that camp on/near objectives in cover seem the more reliable choice for that role. I'm probably wrong, but that's just my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just returned from my local store where i bumped into one of my mates. I mentioned that i was asking you guys for advice and gave him the general idea of what was being said. He then told me i was a pillock for not taking scout bikes and transports like i'd been advised but did warn me that 6th had nerfed most vehicles. So we sat down and tweaked my list, then i watched his Blood Angels get minced by Necrons - note to self; melta Immortals in the face before i get gaused to death!

So here is the improved list, due to required changes it's bumped up to 1750pts. I think it's has a lot of synergy and method behind it, there isn't really any spam but it'll still pretty much play out the same from game to game. Which isn't a bad thing as i can master these tactics faster.


Captain Shrike (joins the assault marines) 195pts

5x Sternguard vets (reserves) 215pts
3x combi-plasmas, 2x combi-meltas.
Drop pod w/ deathwind missile launcher, locator beacon

5x Hammernators (reserves) 200pts

8x Snipers 158pts
camo cloaks, missile launcher, melta bombs

8x Snipers 158pts
camo cloaks, missile launcher, melta bombs

10x Tactical marines 255pts
plasma cannon, flamer, power fist, plasma pistol, melta bombs.
Rhino w/ dozer blade

10x Assault marines 240pts
2x flamers, lightning claws, melta bombs.

Landspeeder sqn (reserves) 210pts
3x landspeeders, each w/ multi melta and heavy flamer

3x Scout bikes 110pts
locater beacon, cluster mines, melta bombs

Total 1751pts


Any thoughts? It's pretty obvious how it's likely to play out, but would you alter anything?

Mick.

I think it's a "scalpel" kind of list where you're gonna need a lot of finesse and very careful placement.
While it's definitely fluffy and can be fun to play I think you're gonna run into a couple of issues:

1) Lack of anti-horde: I think if someone brings bulk troops (orks, zombies, even large Necron warriors/immortals squads) you'll have a hard time thinning them out.

2) I think you need to bulk-up your hard-hitting assault unit (hammernators): by doing so you'll have a more credible threat to distract your enemy away from squishing your troops, which right now is the main issue I see with your list

Otherwise though this would absolutely fit the bill as a Raven Guard army and would look sweet all painted.

Have fun!