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Ok so here is my question does WR affects units that are stubborn or fearless for that matter?

And here is why :

WR:.
.. te enemy unit's leadership is reduced by the number of sancioned psykers...
codex IG pg 47

Stubborn:
When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule takes Morale checks or Pinning tests, they ignore negative Leadership modifiers. If a unit is both Fearless and ....
rulebook 6th ed pg 43.
Certain circumstances can make Morale checks harder for a unit to pass. This is represented by applying Leadership modifiers to Morale checks which can modify Leadership value by -1,-2 or sometimes even more.
rulebook, morale part

For sake of getting right answer i wont say if im IG player or not, although in my opinion it does affect since it doesnt say modify

WR reduces the leadership.

Stubborn allows you to ignore negative modifiers for the purposes of Morale and Pinning.


So WR would reduce the leadership but it would have no effect on a stubborn unit taking a morale or pinning test. It would apply for the purpose of things like Psychic Shriek etc....

I don't no if it works but it could be argued it works because the Grey Knights psychotroke grenade but I would wait for an Faq 4 it.

P.g 5 Grey Knights FAQ.

Q: Are units with either the Stubborn or Mob Rule! special rules
effected by the ‘They’re horrible’ result of the psychotroke grenade?
(p60)
A: Yes, such units will be reduced to Leadership 2. However a
unit with the Mob Rule! special rule that has 11 or more
models will still be Fearless.

Stubborn ignores negative Leadership modifiers, So if you lose a combet by five there is no -5 applied to your Morale test. However, Weaken Resolve is NOT a modifier to a Morale test, it is a reduction in the Leadership used to take that test. As such, Stubborn has no effect.

Now, that's my opinion. However, due to INAT and NOVA Open FAQs ruling otherwise in 5th ed, I've become accustomed to Stubborn ignoring WR. And yes, I am an IG player. And I'm done here.

I'd agree with the above. Strict RAW, stubborn wouldn't do anything.

I think RAI though, and how I would play it, stubborn would protect a unit from being weakened.

Since WR inflicts a temporary reduction in Leadership, not a Leadership modifier, I'd say RAW and Stubborn doesn't help.

I'd say weaken resolve definitely falls into the category of "Modifiers" as described on page 2 of the rule book, and being that it's negative I'd say that Stubborn should ignore it.

Although being neither an IG player nor having any stubborn units in any of the armies that I do play...I really don't care all that much.

Anything that adjusts the base profile is a modifier. Reading that FAQ is interesting though, but it doesnt surprise me that its GK.

But doesn't Stubborn only allow you to ignore negative modifiers to the Morale or Pinning test. WR isn't a modifier to the test (like losing an Assault by 2 wounds gives a -2 modifier)? Or maybe it's argued that the WR reduction IS carried into the test along with any other modifiers?

Yeah, I guess technically its not a morale test even though they use morale in the fluff.

You would still have the modifiers applied to your leadership if you had stubborn; however, you would still ignore those modifiers when making a morale or pinning test. This is quite clear, and I don't see why it is an issue. Thus, Stubborn would not protect a psyker from the effects, if the wording of stubborn doesn't include "Leadership Test" (as a psychic test is a special kind of Leadership Test).

But seriously, how can that argument be made? I guess an important difference between the Grey Knight rule vs the Imperial Guard rule is the Grey Knight rule says "Is reduced to 2", as in set to a specific value, this is not a negative modifier. However, 'reduced by the number", as worded for the Imperial Guard codex, is applying a negative modifer to the leadership.

Thus, the value is modified, but ignored for only specifically Morale or Pinning tests, per the rules of Stubborn. This interpretation makes the most sense to me.

EDIT:

For Fearless Units, they would be effected too: however, they automatically pass tests, so the total effects of the spell would be lessened. As mentioned, It would still make Psychic Shriek neigh deadly to any unit. (ouch!) and still need to pass their Psychic tests.

p2 says setting a characteristic to a value is a Modifier, so that GK FAQ might still be in the game...

As evildrspock pointed out, psychotroke grenades are a set modifier, where as Weaken Resolve is a negative modifier. Although the 'nades reduce your Leadership, since it is not a negative modifier, Stubborn would not apply.

Well, if you read the exact wording of the FAQ, it doesn't change my answer in my post, besides the negative modifier clarification, which I appreciate. Yes, a unit with Stubborn can have it's Leadership reduced to 2 by the Psychotroke Grenade. However, this doesn't change Stubborn's effect on morale and pinning tests, avoiding those negative modifiers.

Thus, the effect effects Leadership checks that do not fall into those categories, including: Psychic Tests, generic Leadership tests. a Morale test is still effected by Stubborn and thus does not apply the negative modifier. The Grey Knights faq ruling on the grenades does not change the way the special rule works, merely clarifies that Stubborn and Fearless unit's Leadership can in fact be modified.

To reiterate, in the case of Stubborn, though, those negative modifiers are still ignored for the specific cases of Morale and Pinning tests. I have no problem with a Stubborn unit having a modified Leadership of 2, it still legally effects the game parameters that Stubborn doesn't address.

EDIT:
For clarity Happyjew, on page 2 of the Rulebook, as noted by snapshot, setting a characteristic to a specific value counts as a modifier in game terms. Thus, the Psychotroke Grenades count as a negative modifier. I was wrong on that point in my first post.

Actually pg 2 notes three types of modifiers, positive, negative and set modifiers, which complicates the argument.

Not really the power uses the word "reduces" making it quite clear how it works. With that said stubborn won't help with psychic shriek

Snapshot wrote:
But doesn't Stubborn only allow you to ignore negative modifiers to the Morale or Pinning test. WR isn't a modifier to the test (like losing an Assault by 2 wounds gives a -2 modifier)? Or maybe it's argued that the WR reduction IS carried into the test along with any other modifiers?

That is correct, Stubborn only applies to Morale and Pinning tests. So for those you would be uneffected, but for other Ld based tests you would be uneffected.

[EDIT: I'm writing this post to try to highlight the meaning of Morale check modifiers, and how they apply for USRs like Stubborn]

This is a simplified version of the MoraleCheck logic that assumes we only pass negative modifiers to the check:
FUNCTION MoraleCheck(Ldr, Mods) BEGIN IF Fearless THEN RETURN "PASS" IF Stubborn THEN Mods = 0 IF Roll("2d6") <= Ldr + Mods THEN RETURN "PASS" ELSE RETURN "FAIL" END
So if the unit is Fearless, it automatically passes. If it is stubborn, we zero the modifiers. We then roll 2d6 and compare to the Leadership less the modifiers (yes, I add the modifiers in the pseudo-code because it is assumed they are negative or zero).

If the unit's basic Leadership is L, they've had WR hit them for -4, and lost an assault by 2, are we doing
MoraleCheck(L, -4-2)
or
MoraleCheck(L-4, -2)
I think most people seem to be saying MoraleCheck(L, -4-2), but that GW FAQ item seems to say we should do MoraleCheck(L-4, -2). At least for the grenade attack it would be MoraleCheck(2, "any mods".

That is a good point, outside of the stubborn/fearless argument here, in what order do you apply modifiers, if you have a stat set to a specific amount, then modified by another amount? Or, sa, a unit has a set Leadership of 2 because of the Psychotroke Grenades, but then because of the army's Warlord Trait, gets to use the leadership of the Warlord as long as he is in 12"? He would still use the leadership of the Warlord in this case, I think, though it's hard to know which rule trumps which rule.

 evildrspock wrote:
That is a good point, outside of the stubborn/fearless argument here, in what order do you apply modifiers, if you have a stat set to a specific amount, then modified by another amount? Or, sa, a unit has a set Leadership of 2 because of the Psychotroke Grenades, but then because of the army's Warlord Trait, gets to use the leadership of the Warlord as long as he is in 12"? He would still use the leadership of the Warlord in this case, I think, though it's hard to know which rule trumps which rule.

In your example they would use the Warlords LD for whichever test.