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Except that terminators, the regular ones anyways, really arnt that good. At 40 points per model, before the almost necessary land raider or Stormraven delivery system, with just high strength on their side, they're not super powerful. They're the tactical marine of higher points cost elites, good at durability, not so great at raw damage output. Last strike and only 2 attacks keeps them from being ridiculous beat sticks, even at strength 6 with powerfists and high WS. At something like 400 points for a unit of 5 terminators plus delivery system, that not amazing. Plus easy counters to terminators outside vehicles is just unload all the anti tank weapons on them, and boom dead terminators.

You're saying that 40 points for a P12 R9 A2 plus standard marine stats isn't worth it?

Now for assault terminators this is a different story, because TH/SS assault terminators would be ridiculous, but that's because of the insanity that is the current stormshield, not so much the thunderhammer. A 3+ invulnerable save on a terminator for free like that is ridiculous. I liked the idea of the older stormshield so where they gave you a 4+ invulnerable in Melee, so maybe make it a 3+ invulnerable in Melee for the modern stormshield, to make sure you don't have that invincible terminator marching across the field, shrugging off las cannons like theyre not a threat, because under the current rules theyre really not to a TH/SS assault terminator.

Whatever this situaion may be, I don't know one bit of space marines but all I would say is 4++ in combat whilst the normal 5++ out of combat. And we can make thunder hammers snazzy, I guarantee it you WILL be pleased at how thunder hammers are reworked. Lots of great possibilities here.

Whatever this situaion may be, I don't know one bit of space marines but all I would say is 4++ in combat whilst the normal 5++ out of combat. And we can make thunder hammers snazzy, I guarantee it you WILL be pleased at how thunder hammers are reworked. Lots of great possibilities here.

hope you've got cool ideas for this, I think having a concussive effect like "a model hit by a thunderhammer counts as last strike for their next combat phase" or something would be fun, but most models would be outright annihilated by a thunderhammer so idk.

You're saying that 40 points for a P12 R9 A2 plus standard marine stats isn't worth it?

am I saying theyre not worth it? No of course not, but they're not the most competitive choice for a 40 point model. They're just a veteran in good armor with a powerfist and storm bolter, so they can do a little bit of everything, but they're not amazing at anything. If I wanted a infantry shredder, id use assault terminators, if i wanted a monster killer, id use TH/SS assault terminators. Regular terminators have never really had a place in the space marine army, because they don't fill a niche or a need. And even against other expensive elites choices from other armies, all they have is high strength and high durability, beyond those two areas theyre not amazing.

hope you've got cool ideas for this, I think having a concussive effect like "a model hit by a thunderhammer counts as last strike for their next combat phase" or something would be fun, but most models would be outright annihilated by a thunderhammer so idk.

Yeah I'm bound to bump into something cool. Recently it's been a bit busy but I should be able to get the vehicle damage + thunderhammers and anything else sorted this week..

am I saying theyre not worth it? No of course not, but they're not the most competitive choice for a 40 point model. They're just a veteran in good armor with a powerfist and storm bolter, so they can do a little bit of everything, but they're not amazing at anything. If I wanted a infantry shredder, id use assault terminators, if i wanted a monster killer, id use TH/SS assault terminators. Regular terminators have never really had a place in the space marine army, because they don't fill a niche or a need. And even against other expensive elites choices from other armies, all they have is high strength and high durability, beyond those two areas theyre not amazing.

I agree with everything you said, I'm just saying that those stats are absolutely outrageous tbh. The Resilience 9 is going to be very very good, as well as the invuln, they're going to be ever more invincible. I think that a good point for Terminators to rest would be 1 attack at P10 each.

Yeah I'm bound to bump into something cool. Recently it's been a bit busy but I should be able to get the vehicle damage + thunderhammers and anything else sorted this week..

Looking forward to what you come up with, but for now, im going to go forward assuming we're using the old vehicle damage system. It does what it needs to, and is already familiar. If a better idea comes out, lets be sure to use that instead.

I agree with everything you said, I'm just saying that those stats are absolutely outrageous tbh. The Resilience 9 is going to be very very good, as well as the invuln, they're going to be ever more invincible. I think that a good point for Terminators to rest would be 1 attack at P10 each.

I agree, i think defense 9 is insane, i put them at defense 8, so theyve got a good survivability range against middle strength weapons, leaving a gap open for some interesting wargear or statline at defense 7, and keeping them out of the super high-end range of the non-vehicle values. And yes they are going to be quite difficult to kill under these rules, but dropping them down to 1 attack at P 10 is problematic. For one, theyre the second most elite organization in a chapter, behind only the honor guard, so giving them the same attack values as a rank and file space marine doesn't make a lot of sense. Beyond that, the whole reason why i gave them strength 6 instead of strength 5 was because i could justify it by lowering their dexterity. The low dexterity of 3, plus the low stealth of 3, means they are not at all hard to hit, be it in shooting or melee, but they are incredibly tough and strong to offset this.

Also, ive been thinking about the mobility stat, and having units be lower or higher than the average at certain points. One thing ive noticed thats a problem is that the slower models (necrons, terminators, etc) will take forever to move across the board under these rules, and can essentially be kited by an opponent. So heres my thought, we make them feel slower, without actually impacting their speed to cross the board. So for instance, something like the slow and purposeful rule, where they cannot run or make sweeping advances, but gain relentless or something, and they don't necessarily need the positive aspect of it. This way, they are "slower" in that they lose the ability to do some of the more speed or agility based effects, but are not hindered in moving across the board quite so much.

Alright I don't mind R8. However giving them an extra attack is ok because of the dexterity, but then I would slightly lower it to P9.

Also, ive been thinking about the mobility stat, and having units be lower or higher than the average at certain points. One thing ive noticed thats a problem is that the slower models (necrons, terminators, etc) will take forever to move across the board under these rules, and can essentially be kited by an opponent. So heres my thought, we make them feel slower, without actually impacting their speed to cross the board. So for instance, something like the slow and purposeful rule, where they cannot run or make sweeping advances, but gain relentless or something, and they don't necessarily need the positive aspect of it. This way, they are "slower" in that they lose the ability to do some of the more speed or agility based effects, but are not hindered in moving across the board quite so much.

If we lower their mobility by 1 as well, we can make them a bit slower but not too slow, and on top of that some rules which make it feel slow, they will both BE slow and FEEL slow. But not too much of course.

Alright I don't mind R8. However giving them an extra attack is ok because of the dexterity, but then I would slightly lower it to P9.

but strength 9 means they'll be weaker than a normal space marine with a powerfist, which doesn't make sense, again, the whole point of the drop to stealth and dexterity was to allow that increase in strength. I think you are seriously overestimating the potential damage output of regular terminators. Yeah they'll be hitting at Strength 12 under these rules, but they're not fast, they attract a ton of fire, and most people will be throwing either bubble wrap units at them or elite close combat units. For the former, losing them won't matter, and for the latter, theyll probably land a bunch of hits due to low dexterity and last strike, and most elite close combat units have some sort of way to deal with tough units, be it rending, poison, power weapon, or whatever.

If we lower their mobility by 1 as well, we can make them a bit slower but not too slow, and on top of that some rules which make it feel slow, they will both BE slow and FEEL slow. But not too much of course.

but a change of 1 inch to movement is not enough to have an impact, it's just busywork. And if we actually slow a unit down, players will want to use a transports rather than walking them, which will push vehicles even further into the game, which i really don't want.

but strength 9 means they'll be weaker than a normal space marine with a powerfist, which doesn't make sense, again, the whole point of the drop to stealth and dexterity was to allow that increase in strength. I think you are seriously overestimating the potential damage output of regular terminators. Yeah they'll be hitting at Strength 12 under these rules, but they're not fast, they attract a ton of fire, and most people will be throwing either bubble wrap units at them or elite close combat units. For the former, losing them won't matter, and for the latter, theyll probably land a bunch of hits due to low dexterity and last strike, and most elite close combat units have some sort of way to deal with tough units, be it rending, poison, power weapon, or whatever.

To be honest only experimenting will determine what the best power for terminators will be, however under no circumstances am I going to let them be the strongest weapon in the galaxy available in such large numbers.

but a change of 1 inch to movement is not enough to have an impact, it's just busywork. And if we actually slow a unit down, players will want to use a transports rather than walking them, which will push vehicles even further into the game, which i really don't want.

But there's only so much you can do to make a unit feel slow. Do you want it so that every slow unit has the same special rule?

But there's only so much you can do to make a unit feel slow. Do you want it so that every slow unit has the same special rule?

That same argument applies to faster units though. They're all just going to be something like 3 inches faster than the norm, so having all the slow units have the same effect apply to all of them would make sense alongside that. I don't want too much variety in movement speeds for infantry, because then you have to keep all of them in mind, rather than them just being slow, normal, or fast.

To be honest only experimenting will determine what the best power for terminators will be, however under no circumstances am I going to let them be the strongest weapon in the galaxy available in such large numbers.

Do I think them being strength 12 could turn out to be a problem? Possibly, particularly against non-heavy vehicles, because strength 12 vs rear armor 11 means auto penetrate, though that kinda makes sense. As for them being available in such large numbers, they're really not, particularly under the new FOC system. You can't just buy two 5 man tactical squads then fill up on 3 10 man terminator squads any more, you'd have to have 4 troops choices to get 3 terminator squads. Beyond that 3 squads of 10 terminators will set you back 1200 points, which means your opponent should be fully capable of blasting them off the table, particularly since they're slow infantry and will take forever to get somewhere. The only army who can spam terminators (besides grey knights who don't use thunderhammers or powerfists as much) is Deathwing Dark angels, and you need a special character HQ to use them as troops, and even there he's a 200+ point HQ and Deathwing terminators are more expensive than normal terminators.

Ok so what special rule do you want to give slow/fast units?

I'm not saying that P12 will be OP (although there is a good chance), it's just that you're saying that nothing exceeds the power of a marine in terminator armour with a power fist. Plus there's no way to get to P12 without sticking with the "power fists double strength" logic which is invalid. I'm saying I don't mind if they're P10 or P9 because playtesting will find balance.

Ok so what special rule do you want to give slow/fast units?

I don't necessarily want them to have a special rule, but rather some trait of the unit that makes them "slow", so basically what the terminator armor equipment entry states in the marine codex, where it says they cannot perform sweeping advances and gain relentless, but not locked into the equipment section. So for instance, they could have unit type heavy infantry, and the BRB would state that heavy infantry would not be able to perform sweeping advances or run, and maybe gain relentless. This way we have an easily rememberable quality of that unit that doesn't require a special rule to describe that effect.

I'm not saying that P12 will be OP (although there is a good chance), it's just that you're saying that nothing exceeds the power of a marine in terminator armour with a power fist. Plus there's no way to get to P12 without sticking with the "power fists double strength" logic which is invalid. I'm saying I don't mind if they're P10 or P9 because playtesting will find balance.

For the realism front, I'd say its totally plausible for the strongest Melee weapon mankind has every produced being wielded by the strongest human in the strongest armor mankind has ever produced to be able to do truly massive amounts of damage on a constrained area for a tiny amount of time, which is what a powerfist does in essence, a very brief, but ridiculously powerful hit. Gameplay wise, yeah having it be the highest possible strength is a bit odd, but these values are always abstractions, and most of the weapons up at strength 12 would be tank weaponry, typically with long range and/or blast templates and ordinance rules, so there are ways to differentiate the strength and killing power of a weapon beyond strength, even if its not as immediately apparant as a stat value. For example, look at a dreadnought with a powerfist vs the vindicator tank. Both strike at strength 10 under the current rules and are mounted on vehicles, but one is a melee weapon while the other is a 24" large blast with ordinance special rule, so it hits way harder.

And how is powerfists doubling strength invalid? Its an easy to remember effect, with proper effects and pricing to match. Yes it doesn't improve every unit wielding it equally, but that's not its role. There are already weapons in place to do exactly that, and it's not possible to increase everything equally. Plus it easily sets them apart from other weapon types, that doubling effect is what makes a powerfist a Powerfist

Hey folks.
Have you got the rules written up yet?I would like to have a read through what you have so far..

Nope not yet Maybe if we reach 20 pages we have to stop faffing around and start writing haha

and most of the weapons up at strength 12 would be tank weaponry, typically with long range and/or blast templates and ordinance rules, so there are ways to differentiate the strength and killing power of a weapon beyond strength, even if its not as immediately apparant as a stat value. For example, look at a dreadnought with a powerfist vs the vindicator tank. Both strike at strength 10 under the current rules and are mounted on vehicles, but one is a melee weapon while the other is a 24" large blast with ordinance special rule, so it hits way harder.

The reason why I don't really want P12 was because I was trying to make it a sort of "10.5" where only the COMPLETELY insane and extraordinary or incomprehensibly rare weapons would be. But I'll be happy to compromise this one time with you and call it P10 with two attacks or P11 with one attack, but this could change depending on how strong they are. Would you like them to have more attacks but less strength, or less attacks but more strength? I would opt for the latter since it's more realistic.

Its an easy to remember effect

So will the alternative.

Yes it doesn't improve every unit wielding it equally, but that's not its role

So you're saying that you're going to let the doubling effect slide by making it cost more for stronger-base units? What if you're a scorpion exarch or even an IG commander, you're going to pay significantly less because your power fist doesn't function well enough? What if you were that eldar/IG player that wanted their power fist to do the same job of SM ones? So SMs are going around blowing up tanks with their P10/11 power fists while we're stuck with P6? The range is 6, 8 and 10. Let's make it 7, 8 and 9, no?

Plus it easily sets them apart from other weapon types, that doubling effect is what makes a powerfist a Powerfist

Yes, but we can keep this because alongside a massive +4 Power increase there could be something else that makes it unique, just like how thunderhammers will be unique.

Nope not yet Maybe if we reach 20 pages we have to stop faffing around and start writing haha

Lol even 20 might be a hopeful estimate. Page 17, and were still working out vehicles, and only just starting to discuss certain weapon types/rules and specific examples.

So you're saying that you're going to let the doubling effect slide by making it cost more for stronger-base units? What if you're a scorpion exarch or even an IG commander, you're going to pay significantly less because your power fist doesn't function well enough? What if you were that eldar/IG player that wanted their power fist to do the same job of SM ones? So SMs are going around blowing up tanks with their P10/11 power fists while we're stuck with P6? The range is 6, 8 and 10. Let's make it 7, 8 and 9, no?

I didn't think about changing prices according to this way of going about it, but yeah thats a good way to handle the differences, something along the lines of a 10/20/25 point split would probably be about right for that direction. And as to wanting my imperial guardsman's powerfist to bust, say, a land raider, my comment to that player is that they have already failed if that is their goal. That's like saying i want to be able to send my guardsman up against a hive tyrant with a decent chance of success, its just not going to happen. As for making it 7, 8, 9, my arguments against the +4 system have already been noted, realistically it doesnt make sense, how am i more than doubling a guardsmans strength but less than doubling a space marines strength with a weapon that is specifically built to function off of and improve the wielders strength.

But I'll be happy to compromise this one time with you and call it P10 with two attacks or P11 with one attack, but this could change depending on how strong they are. Would you like them to have more attacks but less strength, or less attacks but more strength? I would opt for the latter since it's more realistic.

Its not a matter of compromise, their statline is fixed beyond the strength element. Terminators are veterans, so they have 2 attacks. Period. If anything, id be willing to bring them back down to strength 5 instead of strength 6, and drop the dexterity and stealth penalites. But ideally, id like to see these monstrous brutes able to automatically double wound defense 3 models no matter what weapon they're wielding, hence the base strength 6 i suggested for them. Plus i didn't want them to be just "space marines in heavy armor" but rather something more befitting their theme and design, so slow, durable, lumbering, and absolutely murderous models, make them the shock troops they've never really managed to be.

Hi guys.
I think you are struggleing because you want to transfer the current 40k stats and profiles into the new game.And as such you sort of missed the point of writing new rules IMO.

IF you assume the new rule are written to cover everything in 40k, (in a slightly different way.)
Then you are free to develop rules that reflect the battles in the 40k background, rather than transfer the arguments from the current 40k table top.

I have a VERY rough draught of my new rules set written as a modern war game that can cover 40k setting.
I can post it up if you like?

Is only 16 pages, I view it as a NEW starting point rather than a finished work though.(It is very basic.)

Hey Lanrak,

I think you are struggleing because you want to transfer the current 40k stats and profiles into the new game.And as such you sort of missed the point of writing new rules IMO.

IF you assume the new rule are written to cover everything in 40k, (in a slightly different way.)
Then you are free to develop rules that reflect the battles in the 40k background, rather than transfer the arguments from the current 40k table top.

personally, I don't want a completely different game, I want to play a fixed version of 40K. Is there room to add variety and take some creative license? Yes totally, but too much deviation means its not really 40K anymore, hence converting old statlines into the new, with some variety added where needed.

I have a VERY rough draught of my new rules set written as a modern war game that can cover 40k setting.
I can post it up if you like?

Is only 16 pages, I view it as a NEW starting point rather than a finished work though.(It is very basic.)

I'd love to see this, though I'd recommend posting it as a new thread to make sure the widest audience possible sees it.

Well in my experience we have used other rule sets with 40k minatures to play games of 40k. these games ended up with all the narrative of 40k without the arguments over the rules.

I personally do not see the need to use rules based on WHFB, to play a game of 40k.(Epic rules give much better game experiance, and they have NO link to WHFB rules!)

Ill leave you to debate your rules in this thread and start another one for my new rules discussion.
I will be interested to see you final rule set when you get it written up.

Ok so I had an idea on how to handle the tyranid gaunts having such a low defense value and getting double wounded all over the place. The math isn't all there, but I think the idea behind it is pretty solid. It's basically an adapted version of the necrons re-animation protocols, meant for larger numbers of models.

Endless Swarm Special Rule:
-- At the end of the player turn, a unit subject to this special rule rolls a D3 for every 10 models the unit started the game with. This many models are added back to the unit. The unit may not exceed the number of models it started with.

I've toyed with some other ways of doing this, from percentages, to mixing D6 and D3, but they're all clunky and require some excess math and rounding. Hopefully this will push people to take larger units, to max out the endless swarm dice they can get. It also makes upgrades more cost efficient and justifiable, because even if you lose models fast, you're getting some of those losses back each turn, essentially getting free models.

This just hit me, but a cool way to mix the Tervigon into this effect would be to remove the Tervigons birthing power,and have it buff the endless swarm dice within a small area, maybe giving a 2X multiplier. Maybe the Tervigon prime could offer an even higher ratio....idk i think it'd be unbalanced, maybe a larger range for the effect...though that doesn't make any sense. Maybe mix the two methods, with one type of Tervigon getting birthing and the other getting the endless swarm multiplayer.

Ok so I had an idea on how to handle the tyranid gaunts having such a low defense value and getting double wounded all over the place. The math isn't all there, but I think the idea behind it is pretty solid. It's basically an adapted version of the necrons re-animation protocols, meant for larger numbers of models.

Wait let me get this clear you're on board with using the +3 power = double wound thing? So they'll only be getting double wounded by P5 and above.

Endless Swarm Special Rule:
-- At the end of the player turn, a unit subject to this special rule rolls a D3 for every 10 models the unit started the game with. This many models are added back to the unit. The unit may not exceed the number of models it started with.

I like the direction you're going but it kinda feels like necrons. I guess what you're trying to achieve is the sense of overwhelming numbers. How about this?

Endless Swarm: A model with this special rule rolls a D6 at the end of the turn. On a 4+, the unit regains a previously lost casualty.

This means that as the unit dies, their "reinforcements" or "rebreeding" whatever you want to call it, gets worse. It means that if you only kill 1 or 2 models, then they can shrug it off easily. But taking out a large portion of their squad means they can't "heal" as quickly. So a 10 man squad that has lost 6 models can regain 2 of those models at the end of the turn. A 20 man squad that has lost 12 models can regain 4 of them! So a squad that is twice as large heals twice as much!

Hopefully this will push people to take larger units, to max out the endless swarm dice they can get.

Umm well even if they take units of 10 they're getting the same amount of regeneration anyway right?

This just hit me, but a cool way to mix the Tervigon into this effect would be to remove the Tervigons birthing power,and have it buff the endless swarm dice within a small area, maybe giving a 2X multiplier. Maybe the Tervigon prime could offer an even higher ratio....idk i think it'd be unbalanced, maybe a larger range for the effect...though that doesn't make any sense. Maybe mix the two methods, with one type of Tervigon getting birthing and the other getting the endless swarm multiplayer.

Erm well I don't know anything about tyranids so ._.

Wait let me get this clear you're on board with using the +3 power = double wound thing? So they'll only be getting double wounded by P5 and above.

Yeah i like the system, its a bit awkward because double wounds start on a save value of 6+, but beyond that i think it works great. And yeah Bolters and Space Marine punches at strength 5 means lots of double wounds, Space Marines are quite prolific. I'd like for double wounds to start at 5 or 6 above the defense value, to show that going into the " --" zone of the URC means taking a TON more damage than normal, but it would take way too much strength to double wound anything, so +3 it is. Maybe make it once youve gone 6 above the defense value it starts causing instant death rather than triple wounds.....not many models are going to care about triple wounds besides things like HQ's, since theyll have more wounds. How this would interact with monsters is a bit concerning.....Because monster's defense values start at 7 and work up to 10, so they could be double wounded by things as low as strength 10....maybe make it a trait of the monster unit type that they cannot be double wounded.....food for thought

I like the direction you're going but it kinda feels like necrons. I guess what you're trying to achieve is the sense of overwhelming numbers. How about this?

Endless Swarm: A model with this special rule rolls a D6 at the end of the turn. On a 4+, the unit regains a previously lost casualty.

This means that as the unit dies, their "reinforcements" or "rebreeding" whatever you want to call it, gets worse. It means that if you only kill 1 or 2 models, then they can shrug it off easily. But taking out a large portion of their squad means they can't "heal" as quickly. So a 10 man squad that has lost 6 models can regain 2 of those models at the end of the turn. A 20 man squad that has lost 12 models can regain 4 of them! So a squad that is twice as large heals twice as much!

It does feel like Necrons, they're the basis of this idea, though im hoping it being a D3 for models to be added to the unit would make it seem a bit more separate from the Necrons where its a 5+ for each model. As for your version, the wording makes it hard to determine what is supposed to be happening. I don't understand how a 4+ for each model lost results in regaining 1-2 models each turn. And again, the actual method by which the unit regains the lost models is still very much up in the air, i just liked the D3 way of doing it better than the other methods i thought up, since it lets them regain at most 30%, an average of 20%, and a minimum of 10% each turn. So they can't regain a ton each turn, but theyre always guaranteed something back, and when some of the upgrades can nearly double the cost of a bug, ensuring that the squad cant just be whittled away into nothingness easily goes a long way towards making them more justifiable.

Umm well even if they take units of 10 they're getting the same amount of regeneration anyway right?

But if they take units of 10, they only get 1D3. If they double the brood size, they get 2D3, which averages more than the maximum of of just 1D3. If they triple the squad size, they average 6 units back per turn, which is double the maximum of just 1D3. So the more you invest in the unit, the more of it you're likely to get back each turn. Its not a massive scaling or anything, that would be incredibly unbalanced, but averaging 20% of a 30 man unit back each turn (6 models) is a pretty hefty advantage. If i could get an average of 20% of my grey knights back each turn for free (minimum 10%), id jump all over it. Plus at the expected value of un-upgraded gaunts (5-8 points) thats an average of 30 points each turn, potentially 72 points per turn on a 30 man squad you get back for free. Opponents are really going to have to focus down these squads to take them out of commission, and fearless granted by synapse just makes it all the scarier.

Well if you split that 30 man squad up into 3 10 man squads you're getting the same amount of regen.

But in those 10 man squads, if i lose 9 models, i can only recover 3 per turn, whereas if i have a 30 man squad, i have a chance to recover all 9 models in one turn. Not an amazing incentive, but its there. This could also be supplemented with more streamlined upgrade costing, such that it is more cost-efficient to buy upgrades for the entire squad rather than individual units.

EX: The squad may take Adrenal glands for 20 points, instead of the current +1 Point per model or whatever the value is. This way, at 10 models, this upgrade is 2 points per model, at 20, its 1 point per model, at 30 its .66 points per model. Players will want to maximize the efficiency of upgrades, which means buying larger squads.

But in those 10 man squads, if i lose 9 models, i can only recover 3 per turn, whereas if i have a 30 man squad, i have a chance to recover all 9 models in one turn. Not an amazing incentive, but its there. This could also be supplemented with more streamlined upgrade costing, such that it is more cost-efficient to buy upgrades for the entire squad rather than individual units.

Yeah so if your enemy focusses one squad of 10 men then you'll only be able to regen from one of them. But then there are the reasons for taking MSUs like any other unit, so people would still go for 3x10 instead of one huge blob of 30.

EX: The squad may take Adrenal glands for 20 points, instead of the current +1 Point per model or whatever the value is. This way, at 10 models, this upgrade is 2 points per model, at 20, its 1 point per model, at 30 its .66 points per model. Players will want to maximize the efficiency of upgrades, which means buying larger squads.

Yes of course there can be upgrades for the whole squad, driving more people into buying the upgrade for max effect (an example would be buying a shimmershield on a 10 man DA squad, not a 5 man one), but that's nothing new.

Yeah so if your enemy focusses one squad of 10 men then you'll only be able to regen from one of them. But then there are the reasons for taking MSUs like any other unit, so people would still go for 3x10 instead of one huge blob of 30.

of course, we're never going to be able to complete erase MSU style units, not while sticking to the current method of list building anyways, so we should focus on making sure that incentives and advantages exist that make MSU less necessary/favorable. Its one of the reasons im a huge fan of flat unit-wide upgrade costs, they push you to take bigger squads and rethink load outs to maximize points efficiency.

Beyond this, I don't think Tyranids bother with MSU as much, because they have a large pool of troops choices and can pick and choose what they want to use and base their army around them, unless they're going full nidzilla, in which case MSU gaunts are abound in order to fulfill the necessary troops choices and save points for the big baddies, but we're never going to be able to stop that.

Yes of course there can be upgrades for the whole squad, driving more people into buying the upgrade for max effect (an example would be buying a shimmershield on a 10 man DA squad, not a 5 man one), but that's nothing new.

Sadly, this isn't true for current Tyranids, as they still use points per model upgrades. Definitely a change that needs to happen ASAP.


Anyways back to the points we were on before, so powerfist mechanics, terminators, and power weapon mechanics.

Other things to bring up:
Cover
Objectives and scoring

For cover, im thinking light (+1), medium (+2), heavy cover (+3), each granting the listed bonus to stealth. Area terrain and ruins stay pretty much the same. I've toyed with having some cover types increase defense instead of granting an additional stealth bonus, I'm not sure they're quite streamlined enough though. I don't want cover to be just a "harder to hit the target" type of cover, because even if you aim directly at the target, a 12" thick concrete wall is a pretty hefty way to disperse damage, but streamlining this could prove difficult.

Objectives and scoring, I'm conflicted on. I'd like for any unit to be able to score, but having only troops (or equivalent term) score helps reduce MSU, so I'm not sure about which direction to go.