Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The Sisterhood, what with its penitent lifestyle and barely-concealed references to Scottish Catholic schools, and the imagery from the same, are definitely a "nun fetish" reference... probably a few other references to the "Victorian vice", too, in the SOB background.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
My point was about the 'Nun' fetish underlined, perhaps, by the name 'Sister Sin'?

I'd say my point still stands. RT was a very different thing, so it may not be the best comparison. Just the name "Sister Sin" sounds like a joke name, and we don't see that sort of thing today. Maybe they started off that way, but I'd say it's been toned down since.

RT was very much the 'comical' era of what was to become 40k, which is why you do get such silly names as 'Sister Sin', but it's where the Sisters of Battle originate from. They have indeed be toned down (well what hasn't - look at the newer Daemonettes of Slaanesh compared to the old models), but that, along with the other elements Psienesis mentions, are where the corset aesthetics for Sisters most likely comes from.

 Troike wrote:
And again, the Sisters are bankrolled by the Ecclesiarchy. They can foot the bill.

And seeing as the Ecclesiarchy is the richest organization in the Imperium, well, they foot a very large bill.

 Melissia wrote:

 Troike wrote:
And again, the Sisters are bankrolled by the Ecclesiarchy. They can foot the bill.

And seeing as the Ecclesiarchy is the richest organization in the Imperium, well, they foot a very large bill.

I'd actually put the Ademch above the Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarchy may hold the money, but the Admech holds all the valuable resources and is fully capable of snubbing the other organizations.

 Wyzilla wrote:
I'd actually put the Ademch above the Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarchy may hold the money, but the Admech holds all the valuable resources and is fully capable of snubbing the other organizations.

Not really relevant. The point I was making was that the Ecclesiarchy easily had and has the resources to design and requisition Sororitas power armour. Wasn't comparing the Ecclesiarchy to anybody else.

 Troike wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
I'd actually put the Ademch above the Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarchy may hold the money, but the Admech holds all the valuable resources and is fully capable of snubbing the other organizations.

Not really relevant. The point I was making was that the Ecclesiarchy easily had and has the resources to design and requisition Sororitas power armour. Wasn't comparing the Ecclesiarchy to anybody else.

Very much relevant. Astartes are closer to admech than many others are, as proven by the existence of the Techmarines, for example. That the Ecclesiarchy can obtain enough power armour for the Sororitas to use does not say anything more than that.

But I digress, really. Nevermind me.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Very much relevant. Astartes are closer to admech than many others are, as proven by the existence of the Techmarines, for example.

Still not understanding this point. All I said was that the Ecclesiarchy could easily afford designing and making Sororitas power armour, in response to Wyzilla's claim that the making of Sororitas power armour was a "waste". Was not saying the Ecclesiarchy is better or worse than anybody else.

Edit: oh, derp. Just noticed that you two were going off of Melissia's comment about them being the richest, which was a comparison. Which is probably true, still.

In that case, "influence" doesn't particularly matter. Yes the Ecclesiarchy and Mechanicus do have a somewhat strained relationship, but they still work together adequately, and the Mechanicus is fine with providing resources and Tech Priests to the Ecclesiarchy. So it doesn't really matter.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Very much relevant. Astartes are closer to admech than many others are, as proven by the existence of the Techmarines, for example.

The Guard also maintain a very close relationship to the Adeptus Mechanicus. Many TechPriests, of varying rank, work within the armies & regiments of the Imperial Guard, keeping their vehicles and weapons working so that the Guard can fight enemies of the Imperium. When the Guard goes to war, the Adeptus Mechanicus will go with them because it serves the Mechanicus interests in two ways; firstly the Guard are fighting the enemies of humanity but also of great import, who knows what technology the Guard will uncover in their fight against heretics & xenos? Better for the Adeptus Mechanicus to be on hand there and then than have to cross the galaxy/warp to get there, by which time the technology may have been lost/damaged for any number of reasons.



Please note: I am not saying that the relationship between the Guard & Adeptus Mechanicus is closer than that of the Adeptus Astartes & Adeptus Mechanicus, just that it's another example of a very good working relationship between the Imperium and the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Well, Marines do get a few of their number to actually be trained by the Admech. The Guard gets emissaries instead. One can wonder which one is a sign of greater trust, but then, Techpriests would perhaps have more issues 'keeping up' with a Marine strikeforce on the battlefield.

Absolutely, when writing that reply I went to my aged 4th Ed. Astartes Codex to double check on the TechMarine entry where it explicitly states that Marines, selected for their capabilities, are sent to be trained on Mars, thanks to ancient pacts between the Astartes & the Adeptus Mechanicus. Just pointing out that there are also close-ties between the Guard & Adeptus Mechanicus - you might write it out as 'emissaries' but the TechPriests sent by the Adeptus Mechanicus are the grease that keeps the Imperial Guard's war machine rolling - a rather close and beneficial relationship.

The AdMech knows that it cannot exist without the Imperium. It also knows that, were it to try to break away from the Imperium, it would cease to exist, because Mars is in the most-heavily defended system in the galaxy... and they might know how the ships work, but the men and women at the helms of those vessels are not beholden to the Mechanicus.

The AdMech produces power armor for the Sisters because they are paid to do so. They otherwise don't really care who or what you are. Such things are frailties of the flesh.

That's also why they produce power armor for Sisters. Because the Ecclesiarchy pays for it. Quite handsomely!

In real life, the United States Marine Corps is a rapid response unit that can deploy forces around the globe at a moment's notice. Often their job is to take and hold an objective independently until a larger force arrives to take care of the crisis permanently. I feel that that is what the Space Marines should be, shock troopers that make planetfall and hold down the fort until the Guard and the Navy can mobilize. One thousand marines conquering a planet just feels out of place. One thousand marines holding specific checkpoints and positions, performing asset denial across a planet makes much more sense. A company of marines spread out across a city holding strategically valuable locations is a lot more reasonable than the crazy stuff we see in Black Library and Fluff pieces.

Please tell me this isn't what you think about yourself. By the way the US Marines are not elite.

 Troike wrote:

Eh, but Sister Sin is from RT, which has effectively been overwritten. I don't think we've seen spiked boobplates since then, even.

Bear in mind that while that image may not be an accurate representation of Sister's armor, the events depicted in it are still canonically valid. The Rainbow Warriors Chapter gets a mention in the latest SM codex, but on the big map page their homeworld (Prism... Ha Ha GW) is listed as "record deleted" which pretty much means "purged for extreme naughtiness".

Not everything from RT has been paved over in the last 20 years...

squidhills wrote:
Bear in mind that while that image may not be an accurate representation of Sister's armor, the events depicted in it are still canonically valid. The Rainbow Warriors Chapter gets a mention in the latest SM codex, but on the big map page their homeworld (Prism... Ha Ha GW) is listed as "record deleted" which pretty much means "purged for extreme naughtiness".

Not everything from RT has been paved over in the last 20 years...

Sure, of course plenty of stuff carried over. My thoughts on the picture were more to do with its tone (the silly name and the Sister's appearance) rather than the actual events it depicts. Obviously the Sisters still go around purging rogue Marines.

I think it's best to think of RT as an example of early installment weirdness. It's sort of the same, but only in broad stokes. Lots of details and the overal tone are pretty different.

Sorry I didn't read the whole thing but in fluff I have always had trouble with the numbers game. 1000 Troops just seems so low (especially now you look at the legions).
So yeah they are somewhat OP in fluff mainly due to the stories being told often give them plot Armour.

However I think in the game they are so weak now. Codex after codex of creeping power levels have left SM's feeling rather weak (mostly because they are the benchmark). The best of the best of the best. More like 13pts of meh.
I haven't ever been a huge gamer but I remember way back seeing others play the game and everyone seemed to be scared of Terminators. Now everything can kill them.

I read a book a while back, White Scars in the Democules Gulf campaign (Savage Scars perhaps?) and I liked how they could be cut down by sustained fire (but were hard to actually kill) and yet were still on par with Crisis Suits (as long as it was mid/close range).
They also were shown fighting alongside IG/IN because they needed to. That's the kind of fight they should be in.

The legions were also really small as well. If one is to "give me a hundred astartes, or failing that, a thousand of other troops", as a certain primarch says, it makes one realize that they're even smaller than it seems. The Imperial Guard regularly deploys forces with more firepower and manpower than the Astartes Legions, based off of that statement.

 Melissia wrote:
The legions were also really small as well. If one is to "give me a hundred astartes, or failing that, a thousand of other troops", as a certain primarch says, it makes one realize that they're even smaller than it seems. The Imperial Guard regularly deploys forces with more firepower and manpower than the Astartes Legions, based off of that statement.

this statement is what always has resonated for me, and what seems to find the best middle ground between the various interpretations of the SM's that we've got, appearing the most realistic.

However, when we take this as being the case, it makes several things rather awkward. It means in a pitched ground battle, an average IG regiment can nearly match an Astartes chapter (an IG regiment usually being 5-10 thousand strong). Now granted, the SM's have their fleets and whatnot, but each chapter maxes out at ~1,000 marines, and they need to fight as infantry, pilots of SM aircraft, they need to crew SM tanks, and command starships, with the rest (including almost all the naval aspect except the captain's chair) being carried out by Thralls.

Even more important, it means the entirety of the Astartes is worth about 10 million guardsmen. There we have a bigger problem. Given that there are billions of IG regiments (plural billions) each with thousands of troops, it makes the military value of the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes very small indeed. If we take that plural billions to mean just 2 billion, and use the Cadian 8th as an average size with 8,000 troops, that gives us a total of 16 Trillion (16,000,000,000,000) IG troops, or sixteen million (16,000,000) guardsmen per Space Marine. This number is about accurate if we assume a mobilization rate about equal to that of current (active military personnel of ground forces comprising 1 in 400/500 people), modern day Earth, which is about the lowest it has ever been in recent memory. If we assume a rate of mobilization more appropriate to a militaristic empire at constant war on multiple fronts, say similar to that of the major nations at war during WW2, that number explodes quite quickly, potentially more than 10x. This is not yet including the Imperial Navy, which would be similarly gargantuan, and where the Astartes are on equal footing at best (not the 1-10 superiority they enjoy on the ground).

When viewed in this light, the Astartes should be largely irrelevant as a galactic military force, even if you assume they're a hundred times more powerful than the quote supposes (meaning you'd need 100,000 other troops to do what a hundred space marines can), they're still too few to be relevant. That's why I really wish they'd written the SM's differently, there's just no way they should be as vital as they're made out to be.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
The legions were also really small as well. If one is to "give me a hundred astartes, or failing that, a thousand of other troops", as a certain primarch says, it makes one realize that they're even smaller than it seems. The Imperial Guard regularly deploys forces with more firepower and manpower than the Astartes Legions, based off of that statement.

this statement is what always has resonated for me, and what seems to find the best middle ground between the various interpretations of the SM's that we've got, appearing the most realistic.

However, when we take this as being the case, it makes several things rather awkward. It means in a pitched ground battle, an average IG regiment can nearly match an Astartes chapter (an IG regiment usually being 5-10 thousand strong). Now granted, the SM's have their fleets and whatnot, but each chapter maxes out at ~1,000 marines, and they need to fight as infantry, pilots of SM aircraft, they need to crew SM tanks, and command starships, with the rest (including almost all the naval aspect except the captain's chair) being carried out by Thralls.

Even more important, it means the entirety of the Astartes is worth about 10 million guardsmen. There we have a bigger problem. Given that there are billions of IG regiments (plural billions) each with thousands of troops, it makes the military value of the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes very small indeed. If we take that plural billions to mean just 2 billion, and use the Cadian 8th as an average size with 8,000 troops, that gives us a total of 16 Trillion (16,000,000,000,000) IG troops, or sixteen million (16,000,000) guardsmen per Space Marine. This number is about accurate if we assume a mobilization rate about equal to that of current (active military personnel of ground forces comprising 1 in 400/500 people), modern day Earth, which is about the lowest it has ever been in recent memory. If we assume a rate of mobilization more appropriate to a militaristic empire at constant war on multiple fronts, say similar to that of the major nations at war during WW2, that number explodes quite quickly, potentially more than 10x. This is not yet including the Imperial Navy, which would be similarly gargantuan, and where the Astartes are on equal footing at best (not the 1-10 superiority they enjoy on the ground).

When viewed in this light, the Astartes should be largely irrelevant as a galactic military force, even if you assume they're a hundred times more powerful than the quote supposes (meaning you'd need 100,000 other troops to do what a hundred space marines can), they're still too few to be relevant. That's why I really wish they'd written the SM's differently, there's just no way they should be as vital as they're made out to be.

Well that was well reasoned and intelligent.

What are you doing on dakka?

 Melissia wrote:
Assassins in general aren't rarer than marines, I should note, even if the Officio Assassinorum operatives are. The Assassinorum, however, is far more competent at killing the target without causing collateral damage than Astartes are. Hell, even non-Assassinorum assassins would be.

A well placed IED, dagger, or bullet can do the same thing as calling in three squads of marines if you're just looking to assassinate a leader.

They don't have the whole "Holy Gak!" effect of three squads of marines drop podding in, gunning down the leader, and butchering everyone there.

"Collateral damage" is a term that means nothing to the Imperium.

However, when we take this as being the case, it makes several things rather awkward. It means in a pitched ground battle, an average IG regiment can nearly match an Astartes chapter (an IG regiment usually being 5-10 thousand strong). Now granted, the SM's have their fleets and whatnot, but each chapter maxes out at ~1,000 marines, and they need to fight as infantry, pilots of SM aircraft, they need to crew SM tanks, and command starships, with the rest (including almost all the naval aspect except the captain's chair) being carried out by Thralls.

Well. they are. In a pitched ground battle, the SM have already lost all of their main advantages, that being rapid mobility and first-strike capabilities. They don't have the equipment to stand in a meatgrinder battle against ten thousand soldiers with tanks and long-range artillery.

If it comes down to a battle of trench warfare, SM vs IG... the IG (plot-armor aside) should win this handily, as they have the artillery to simply pound the SM into paste.

When viewed in this light, the Astartes should be largely irrelevant as a galactic military force, even if you assume they're a hundred times more powerful than the quote supposes (meaning you'd need 100,000 other troops to do what a hundred space marines can), they're still too few to be relevant. That's why I really wish they'd written the SM's differently, there's just no way they should be as vital as they're made out to be.

By themselves, they are. What the books don't tell you, though, is that behind every successful SM campaign are ten million Imperial Guardsmen exploiting the beach-heads the SM have gained, surrounding the enemies the SM have cut off from support and comms, pushing forward on miles-wide fronts while the SM "commando teams" take out supplies, artillery, leaders and communications networks.

The SM are a tool the Imperium uses to win wars, they are the anvil to the Imperial Guard's hammer, but they are not the only weapon the Imperium possesses.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
The legions were also really small as well. If one is to "give me a hundred astartes, or failing that, a thousand of other troops", as a certain primarch says, it makes one realize that they're even smaller than it seems. The Imperial Guard regularly deploys forces with more firepower and manpower than the Astartes Legions, based off of that statement.

this statement is what always has resonated for me, and what seems to find the best middle ground between the various interpretations of the SM's that we've got, appearing the most realistic.

However, when we take this as being the case, it makes several things rather awkward. It means in a pitched ground battle, an average IG regiment can nearly match an Astartes chapter (an IG regiment usually being 5-10 thousand strong). Now granted, the SM's have their fleets and whatnot, but each chapter maxes out at ~1,000 marines, and they need to fight as infantry, pilots of SM aircraft, they need to crew SM tanks, and command starships, with the rest (including almost all the naval aspect except the captain's chair) being carried out by Thralls.

Even more important, it means the entirety of the Astartes is worth about 10 million guardsmen. There we have a bigger problem. Given that there are billions of IG regiments (plural billions) each with thousands of troops, it makes the military value of the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes very small indeed. If we take that plural billions to mean just 2 billion, and use the Cadian 8th as an average size with 8,000 troops, that gives us a total of 16 Trillion (16,000,000,000,000) IG troops, or sixteen million (16,000,000) guardsmen per Space Marine. This number is about accurate if we assume a mobilization rate about equal to that of current (active military personnel of ground forces comprising 1 in 400/500 people), modern day Earth, which is about the lowest it has ever been in recent memory. If we assume a rate of mobilization more appropriate to a militaristic empire at constant war on multiple fronts, say similar to that of the major nations at war during WW2, that number explodes quite quickly, potentially more than 10x. This is not yet including the Imperial Navy, which would be similarly gargantuan, and where the Astartes are on equal footing at best (not the 1-10 superiority they enjoy on the ground).

When viewed in this light, the Astartes should be largely irrelevant as a galactic military force, even if you assume they're a hundred times more powerful than the quote supposes (meaning you'd need 100,000 other troops to do what a hundred space marines can), they're still too few to be relevant. That's why I really wish they'd written the SM's differently, there's just no way they should be as vital as they're made out to be.

The problem is partly due to the creeping story theme of portraying the Space Marines not so much as skilled bio-engineered special forces teams but as demigods or superheroes wading through hordes of the enemy, impervious to anything unless required by plot, and often showing as much strategic or tactical finesse as a brick yet still surviving the consequences of their stupidity.

Take for example, the BFG background of SM fleets being designed for boarding assaults and delivery of Space Marines to planet surfaces, but being inferior to Imperial Navy ships in straight out ship to ship fights to ensure that the Navy could put a curb on renegade Marines. Increasingly there seems a trend by GW towards trying to implicitly retcon this by showing the Imperial Navy to be the space equivalent of the IG and inferior to the Space Marine ships. Try to suggest in some places that Space Marines are not the best in space and in the air as well as on land and in any other field you can think of, and you will get howls of anger or disbelief from some people.

I think the problem is this invincible portrayal, which part of me suspects feeds the power fantasies of at least some players/readers. When for example was the last time Marines were portrayed as suffering or reflecting on being defeated by non-Marines/non-CSM? Or perhaps being caught in a situation where their superhuman strength or martial skill wasn't the ultimate solution to their problem?

I tend to look at the BL stories of the SM being demi-gods as being tales that Imperial citizens tell one another around the hab-fires at night. The story has grown in its telling, and fact has given way to legend and myth.

A story of five Marines making a stand against seventy Orks and losing 1 Battle-Brother in a six-hour battle has become 1 Marine against ten thousand Orks, fighting for 3 days and nights, alone, emerging victorious... because that is how myths work.

Psienesis wrote:

Well. they are. In a pitched ground battle, the SM have already lost all of their main advantages, that being rapid mobility and first-strike capabilities. They don't have the equipment to stand in a meatgrinder battle against ten thousand soldiers with tanks and long-range artillery.

If it comes down to a battle of trench warfare, SM vs IG... the IG (plot-armor aside) should win this handily, as they have the artillery to simply pound the SM into paste.

The issue is that much of the time the SM's are fighting exactly this kind of battle, and that there are those that think such a fight would obviously be won by the Space Marines. More to the point, we're talking a single IG regiment here against a chapter of Space Marines, one numbers in the uncounted billions, the other numbers roughly a thousand.

By themselves, they are. What the books don't tell you, though, is that behind every successful SM campaign are ten million Imperial Guardsmen exploiting the beach-heads the SM have gained, surrounding the enemies the SM have cut off from support and comms, pushing forward on miles-wide fronts while the SM "commando teams" take out supplies, artillery, leaders and communications networks.

The SM are a tool the Imperium uses to win wars, they are the anvil to the Imperial Guard's hammer, but they are not the only weapon the Imperium possesses.

The problem here is twofold.

Half the time the SM's are described as waging wars and fighting battles entirely on their own, quashing invasions or retaking planets without any sort of interaction or follow up by other Imperial forces.

The other issue is that, quite frankly, why bother with these autonomous Space Marine chapters that require lots of specialized and unique (relatively) fighting gear and vehicles, that do what they want, fight (or don't fight) where they want, and rule planets or sectors all on their own and have been known to fight each other, fight other Imperial organizations, and turn traitor (at at least the same rate as non-astartes troops), and are only available in the rarest of circumstances (as most wars never see a single Space Marine), when they could just throw more guardsmen at the problem (even if millions more troops die) and never even notice the difference? Obviously the Imperium has ways to compensate for not having SM's since most conflicts never see any Space Marines, so inevitably that leads one to think...

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Assassins in general aren't rarer than marines, I should note, even if the Officio Assassinorum operatives are. The Assassinorum, however, is far more competent at killing the target without causing collateral damage than Astartes are. Hell, even non-Assassinorum assassins would be.

A well placed IED, dagger, or bullet can do the same thing as calling in three squads of marines if you're just looking to assassinate a leader.

They don't have the whole "Holy Gak!" effect of three squads of marines drop podding in, gunning down the leader, and butchering everyone there.

"Collateral damage" is a term that means nothing to the Imperium.

There are a couple of issues with this. A lot of the Imperium's enemies wouldn't have a "holy gak" reaction, it's just not in their nature. Another issue is that now instead of one guy being sent in to kill one target, possibly either from a suicide blast or a long range sniper shot (and thus either not having to worry about recovery or being far easier to recover), we've got several dozen troops that now need to be evacuated and are likely surrounded by enemies that will have no problems locating and engaging them, and every defense system ramping up to full alert. I mean, think of it this way, purely as a hypothetical, if this happened to the US White House or #10 Downing Street, while the SM's may succeed in killing everyone there, they probably wouldn't make it out of there alive, and their destruction may be of significant propaganda value.

Iracundus wrote:


The problem is partly due to the creeping story theme of portraying the Space Marines not so much as skilled bio-engineered special forces teams but as demigods or superheroes wading through hordes of the enemy, impervious to anything unless required by plot, and often showing as much strategic or tactical finesse as a brick yet still surviving the consequences of their stupidity.

Take for example, the BFG background of SM fleets being designed for boarding assaults and delivery of Space Marines to planet surfaces, but being inferior to Imperial Navy ships in straight out ship to ship fights to ensure that the Navy could put a curb on renegade Marines. Increasingly there seems a trend by GW towards trying to implicitly retcon this by showing the Imperial Navy to be the space equivalent of the IG and inferior to the Space Marine ships. Try to suggest in some places that Space Marines are not the best in space and in the air as well as on land and in any other field you can think of, and you will get howls of anger or disbelief from some people.

I think the problem is this invincible portrayal, which part of me suspects feeds the power fantasies of at least some players/readers. When for example was the last time Marines were portrayed as suffering or reflecting on being defeated by non-Marines/non-CSM? Or perhaps being caught in a situation where their superhuman strength or martial skill wasn't the ultimate solution to their problem?

A good point. One can also see this in the visuals aspects of the Space Marines. They're increasingly more "Knightly" and High-tech/GI-Joe-y, and moving further and further from the more "steampunky" and brutal looks of 2E and 3E. Fewer pipes and tubes and spikes and more shields and eagles and laurels.

 Psienesis wrote:
I tend to look at the BL stories of the SM being demi-gods as being tales that Imperial citizens tell one another around the hab-fires at night. The story has grown in its telling, and fact has given way to legend and myth.

A story of five Marines making a stand against seventy Orks and losing 1 Battle-Brother in a six-hour battle has become 1 Marine against ten thousand Orks, fighting for 3 days and nights, alone, emerging victorious... because that is how myths work.

That's kinda how I usually view it, it makes a lot more sense that way

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Assassins in general aren't rarer than marines, I should note, even if the Officio Assassinorum operatives are. The Assassinorum, however, is far more competent at killing the target without causing collateral damage than Astartes are. Hell, even non-Assassinorum assassins would be.

A well placed IED, dagger, or bullet can do the same thing as calling in three squads of marines if you're just looking to assassinate a leader.

They don't have the whole "Holy Gak!" effect of three squads of marines drop podding in, gunning down the leader, and butchering everyone there.

"Collateral damage" is a term that means nothing to the Imperium.

There are a couple of issues with this. A lot of the Imperium's enemies wouldn't have a "holy gak" reaction, it's just not in their nature.

Such as?
You've got Chaos Marines who won't have the "holy gak" reaction, you've got Orks(maybe--depending on force composition and other factors), Necrons, and Tyranids.
How common are Chaos Marines on fields where Officio Assassinorum operatives would be deployed?
How about Orks, Necrons, or Tyranids?

Let's also not forget that if Marines are dropping into the middle of a Tyranid swarm, they're going after synapse creatures and planning on it being a suicide mission anyways--and have equipped themselves accordingly.

So out of all the possible forces that you're going to see the Marines fighting, that's four who won't get that huge morale hit. The cultists, traitor guardsmen, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar and possibly Orks are entirely vulnerable to that morale hit though and Tyranids would be highly vulnerable to having the synapse networks cut.

Another issue is that now instead of one guy being sent in to kill one target, possibly either from a suicide blast or a long range sniper shot (and thus either not having to worry about recovery or being far easier to recover), we've got several dozen troops that now need to be evacuated and are likely surrounded by enemies that will have no problems locating and engaging them, and every defense system ramping up to full alert. I mean, think of it this way, purely as a hypothetical, if this happened to the US White House or #10 Downing Street, while the SM's may succeed in killing everyone there, they probably wouldn't make it out of there alive, and their destruction may be of significant propaganda value.

And again, you're making the same mistake that you're trying to accuse the Marine fanboys of.
The Marines are not going to be doing these drops as something purely intended to win them the day. It's the opening salvo for a sustained campaign, or something done at the height of the fighting during the campaign.

To use your example: If the Marines dropped into the White House, they might have ramped every defense system up to full alert with the enemies "having no problems locating and engaging them"--but what does that matter when the Guard and Navy start opening up their own fronts? And where are the Chapter vessels that got the Marines to the warzone during this?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Such as?
You've got Chaos Marines who won't have the "holy gak" reaction, you've got Orks(maybe--depending on force composition and other factors), Necrons, and Tyranids.
How common are Chaos Marines on fields where Officio Assassinorum operatives would be deployed?
How about Orks, Necrons, or Tyranids?

We don't know how often they're deployed against specific targets, that said, we do know that the Imperium sends assassins against CSM targets, the 3.5E book had a big section on a briefing given to take out each of Abaddon's chief lieutenants.

As for who will/won't take the morale hit, that's something that could be argued back and forth practically forever. One could argue hardened aspect warriors wouldn't be frightened at all (there's an obvious enemy to fight, unlike an unseen sniper taking lives at will), etc. Essentially you're looking at humans, tau, and a debatable portion of races that are not the greatest threat to the Imperium.

And again, you're making the same mistake that you're trying to accuse the Marine fanboys of.
The Marines are not going to be doing these drops as something purely intended to win them the day. It's the opening salvo for a sustained campaign, or something done at the height of the fighting during the campaign.

Except, time and again, we're given examples of them doing exactly what you say they're not. Hell, the first HH book opens this way if I'm remembering correctly, Horus and co. teleport to the faux-Emperor's throne room, slays everyone therein, and hooray victory!

The issue is that much of the time the SM's are fighting exactly this kind of battle, and that there are those that think such a fight would obviously be won by the Space Marines. More to the point, we're talking a single IG regiment here against a chapter of Space Marines, one numbers in the uncounted billions, the other numbers roughly a thousand.

A single IG Regiment is not "uncounted billions", it's a few thousand dudes/ettes. The Tanith First-And-Only was an infantry Regiment that had, at its height (the night it left Tanith) 3000 soldiers, just as an example. It was intended to have two other Regiments, bringing the total Tanith tithe to 9000 soldiers.

Half the time the SM's are described as waging wars and fighting battles entirely on their own, quashing invasions or retaking planets without any sort of interaction or follow up by other Imperial forces.

The other issue is that, quite frankly, why bother with these autonomous Space Marine chapters that require lots of specialized and unique (relatively) fighting gear and vehicles, that do what they want, fight (or don't fight) where they want, and rule planets or sectors all on their own and have been known to fight each other, fight other Imperial organizations, and turn traitor (at at least the same rate as non-astartes troops), and are only available in the rarest of circumstances (as most wars never see a single Space Marine), when they could just throw more guardsmen at the problem (even if millions more troops die) and never even notice the difference? Obviously the Imperium has ways to compensate for not having SM's since most conflicts never see any Space Marines, so inevitably that leads one to think...

Described, yes. But, then, see my point about a BL novel being a myth re-told well after the fact.

And the reason the Imperium bothers with them is because the God-Emperor bothered with them, and it is from his edicts that their power is derived. Say what you will about the High Lords of Terra, they operate as a "proxy government" in the name of the Emperor, just as they had in the time of the Great Crusade and the Heresy. There are things (including 10,000+ years of history and precedent) that dictate how they operate.

... and getting rid of all of the Space Marines is not within their remit.

 Vaktathi wrote:


And again, you're making the same mistake that you're trying to accuse the Marine fanboys of.
The Marines are not going to be doing these drops as something purely intended to win them the day. It's the opening salvo for a sustained campaign, or something done at the height of the fighting during the campaign.

Except, time and again, we're given examples of them doing exactly what you say they're not. Hell, the first HH book opens this way if I'm remembering correctly, Horus and co. teleport to the faux-Emperor's throne room, slays everyone therein, and hooray victory!

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:


And again, you're making the same mistake that you're trying to accuse the Marine fanboys of.
The Marines are not going to be doing these drops as something purely intended to win them the day. It's the opening salvo for a sustained campaign, or something done at the height of the fighting during the campaign.

Except, time and again, we're given examples of them doing exactly what you say they're not. Hell, the first HH book opens this way if I'm remembering correctly, Horus and co. teleport to the faux-Emperor's throne room, slays everyone therein, and hooray victory!

IIRC, It was stated/shown in another HH book (or possibly that same very one, though I think it was a Space Wolf incident) that what the Space Marines typically considered "victory" actually meant several months or years of mopping up operations by the Imperial Army.

At any rate, a lot of these cases are just a case of bad writing, I think. Unfortunately, there tends to be a lot of that.