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Noir wrote:How old are you?

Old enough to be working on a Ph.D. program.

Traditio wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:This is a game right? The point of a game is to win.

By trying to put a sequential order on the purpose or purposes of the game you've added a completely subjective element. Fairness and fun might come befors winning for you but it won't for everyone.

Having fun by doing unfair things makes you a bad person. That's a fact. I don't care if we're talking about a game or anything else.

Thus, you should never lie. Not even for the purposes of a game. If a game requires you to lie, then don't play that game. Period.

So, the card game 'cheat' is some evil thing now? Poker? Call my bluff?

A game should be fair, but fairness should be built into the rules. The responsibility isn't on the players to be fair, if they're following the rules. Especially if they're in an environment where people play 'broken' lists, and they enjoy playing to win.

Peregrine wrote:Why does the "fairness" of something matter more than whether or not both players are having fun? If both of us bring the "unfair" lists you hate and have lots of fun playing against each other then how exactly are we bad people?

There is a moral obligation to act justly. Always.

IOW, you don't think people should ever play games that involve bluffing or deception. I can't imagine living in such a boring and restricted world.

Lying is per se evil.

Heavens you're naive.

Traditio wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:This is a game right? The point of a game is to win.

By trying to put a sequential order on the purpose or purposes of the game you've added a completely subjective element. Fairness and fun might come befors winning for you but it won't for everyone.

Having fun by doing unfair things makes you a bad person. That's a fact. I don't care if we're talking about a game or anything else.

Thus, you should never lie. Not even for the purposes of a game. If a game requires you to lie, then don't play that game. Period.

Way to cut out the part where I said fun, fairness, and winning are equally important and then attack me about something I didn't say nor believe. Cutting out portions of something someone said to alter the point to fit your needs is unethical and rude.

Traditio wrote:

Noir wrote:How old are you?

Old enough to be working on a Ph.D. program.

Then there is no way I believe what you said about how you should never lie.

Traditio wrote:

Peregrine wrote:Why does the "fairness" of something matter more than whether or not both players are having fun? If both of us bring the "unfair" lists you hate and have lots of fun playing against each other then how exactly are we bad people?

There is a moral obligation to act justly. Always.

IOW, you don't think people should ever play games that involve bluffing or deception. I can't imagine living in such a boring and restricted world.

Lying is per se evil.

By changing my quote through cutting out a portion of it you misrepresented what I had said. That's lying.

OverwatchCNC wrote:Way to cut out the part where I said fun, fairness, and winning are equally important and then attack me about something I didn't say nor believe. Cutting out portions of something someone said to alter the point to fit your needs is unethical and rude.

I wasn't trying to misrepresent you. At any rate, you're wrong. Fun and fairness are not equally important. The obligation to act fairly obtains universally. There is no such obligation to have fun.

Traditio wrote:
There is a moral obligation to act justly. Always.

And the point is that your definition of "justly" is absurd. You think that complying with your personal (and entirely arbitrary) standards for "fair" army lists is more important than whether the players are having fun. A more sensible definition of playing "justly" might be something like "respecting your opponent as a person and not sacrificing their enjoyment of the game just to ensure that you win".

Lying is per se evil.

Why?

 Blacksails wrote:

Traditio wrote:



Sup, pot! Have you met kettle?

Then find the posts where I called people names, assumed things and insulted their ability to play a game in order to dismiss an argument or credibility or was otherwise unnecessarily rude.

I will apologize for each and every instance if you can find them.

For topic reasons, a PM will suffice.

I came back to the thread too late, I have the quote somewhere around here but I think I used it earlier on in this very thread

Next time I won't be watching a movie Blacksails

Noir wrote:Then there is no way I believe what you said about how you should never lie.

This is the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, a whole host of church fathers, Immanuel Kant, and probably a bunch of other people as well.

Lying for the sake of fun, humor or leisure is not seriously wrong. But it's still wrong.

Traditio wrote:
There is no such obligation to have fun.

Then why are you playing a game?

40k is not a game where you can make money or win fame, if you aren't having fun then the game is a failure. It's just amazing to me that you think that abstract philosophical concepts about "fairness" are more important than this.

Traditio wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:Way to cut out the part where I said fun, fairness, and winning are equally important and then attack me about something I didn't say nor believe. Cutting out portions of something someone said to alter the point to fit your needs is unethical and rude.

I wasn't trying to misrepresent you. At any rate, you're wrong. Fun and fairness are not equally important. The obligation to act fairly obtains universally. There is no such obligation to have fun.

That seals it for me. You're either trolling or incapable of reason. I'm out, have fun with this "PhD aged" (whatever that means) argument.

Traditio wrote:
1. How your game decisions affect other players (if you both buy the next, best broken thing, what does that say to GW?).

As discussed in other threads: GW is more concerned with the merits of it being a collectable model.
Nothing had been proven that at least upper management is overly concerned with the rules accompanying them.
In regards to "broken" nothing of that nature has been specifically mentioned or addressed in an FAQ.

2. What if you plan on playing other people?

The whole point of the thread right here.
The rule base allows for a vast difference in power levels that are not proportionate for the points.
We are also human beings and pick models/units/armies for vastly differing reasons.
He has a similar odds of getting a like minded person to play as a fluff player that thinks vanilla guard with no vehicles and no heavy weapons are epic! (but he is spamming troops! unfair!)

Play X-wing or Warmachine or some system where some attempt at balance has been made where pick-up games have a hope... or chess for that matter, but you could be construed as a WAAC for picking white because you go first!

40k is a game with rules (not ideal, but at least they are written down).
You cannot seem to agree to some formulated house rule to fit your "expectations".

I think I am happy with not meeting your arbitrary, nebulous determination of a "decent" person.
I suspect if I met your approval, I would be less of a person.
Good luck with your "pursuit of perfection".

<edit> Just saw the "No lying" thing.
Now I understand!
Why the heck are you playing a "war game"????
If bluffing for fun shocks the morality meter, simulating death and destruction is OK?????!!!!
No name calling, I know, but, but, he is operating on a different reality than most... the denial is staggering

 Peregrine wrote:

Traditio wrote:
There is no such obligation to have fun.

Then why are you playing a game?

40k is not a game where you can make money or win fame, if you aren't having fun then the game is a failure. It's just amazing to me that you think that abstract philosophical concepts about "fairness" are more important than this.

Or, as an alternative, he doesn't really think that at all and is just enjoying the attention.

Traditio wrote:
This is the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, a whole host of church fathers, Immanuel Kant, and probably a bunch of other people as well.

Nice appeal to authority. Though it does explain a lot about where your opinions come from.

(PS: those "church fathers" are all laughably wrong, and Kant's ethical system is a broken mess.)

Lying for the sake of fun, humor or leisure is not seriously wrong. But it's still wrong.

And thankfully you're (almost) alone in that black and white world of yours. The rest of us understand that lying in a game (bluffing, playing a game where deception is part of the rules, etc) is not an ethical problem at all.

Peregrine wrote:And the point is that your definition of "justly" is absurd.

"Proportional equality." That is what justice is.

You think that complying with your personal (and entirely arbitrary) standards for "fair" army lists is more important than whether the players are having fun. A more sensible definition of playing "justly" might be something like "respecting your opponent as a person and not sacrificing their enjoyment of the game just to ensure that you win".

That certainly can be part of it.

Why?

Linguistic acts are per se ordered to the expression of mental acts/judgments of the mind. To speak is to express what is "on your mind," so to speak. When you tell a lie, you use a linguistic act in a way which is subversive to its natural ordering.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Or, as an alternative, he doesn't really think that at all and is just enjoying the attention.

No, I think he's being entirely sincere. His list of philosophers makes it very clear where he's coming from and the argument is at least consistent with itself. He's still laughably wrong, of course, but that doesn't make it trolling.

Now I'm worried I'm a bad person because I'm travelling several hundred miles to surprise my 4 year old niece on her birthday this weekend.

We haven't told her I'm coming, and omission is a form of lying right?

I mean, making a little girl happy on her birthday by surprising her is just wrong right?

I'm bringing her granny with me too, she isn't expecting to see her either.

Christ, I'm going to hell!

 Azreal13 wrote:
Now I'm worried I'm a bad person because I'm travelling several hundred miles to surprise my 4 year old niece on her birthday this weekend.

We haven't told her I'm coming, and omission is a form of lying right?

I mean, making a little girl happy on her birthday by surprising her is just wrong right?

I'm bringing her granny with me too, she isn't expecting to see her either.

Christ, I'm going to hell!

You're subverting the natural order, heathen!

 Peregrine wrote:

Traditio wrote:
There is no such obligation to have fun.

Then why are you playing a game?

40k is not a game where you can make money or win fame, if you aren't having fun then the game is a failure. It's just amazing to me that you think that abstract philosophical concepts about "fairness" are more important than this.

Peregrine, I fully admit that you should play warhammer to have fun. If you are not having fun in a game of warhammer, then something has gone horribly, horribly wrong. My only point is that considerations of fairness supervene considerations of fun. You should have fun within the constraints of fairness.

Traditio wrote:
"Proportional equality." That is what justice is.'

As we've established, there is equality. Both players start with the same point total to build their armies and have access to the same options. Anything you add on to this basic definition of equality is nothing more than your personal preferences about how you want to play the game.

And what's so frustrating is that your personal preferences aren't that unreasonable, if you just accept that they aren't universal truth. You've constructed some army lists that you enjoy, and you want to be able to use them without feeling like you have no hope of winning. It would be perfectly fine if you said "this is how I like to play the game" and looked for opponents who share your views on army construction. But instead you can't be satisfied with leaving it as just your personal preference, you have to add on this ridiculous "fairness" argument to portray your opinions as universal truth. It's not enough for your army to be fun for you, it has to be the One True Way To Play A Fair Game, and anyone who doesn't match the power level of your lists has to be a WAAC TFG.

Linguistic acts are per se ordered to the expression of mental acts/judgments of the mind. To speak is to express what is "on your mind," so to speak. When you tell a lie, you use a linguistic act in a way which is subversive to its natural ordering.

So let me guess, you're a philosophy PhD? Or did you just minor in it?

Meanwhile, out in the real world away from abstract philosophical arguments, anyone with a bit of common sense understands the difference between "lying" in a game where everyone playing the game has agreed (whether implicitly or explicitly) that lying is within the rules and lying in a context where honesty is expected.

Traditio wrote:

Noir wrote:Then there is no way I believe what you said about how you should never lie.

This is the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, a whole host of church fathers, Immanuel Kant, and probably a bunch of other people as well.

Lying for the sake of fun, humor or leisure is not seriously wrong. But it's still wrong.

Say that all you want is does change the fact it is not true. This thread is my proof or you would follow the don't judge other part.

Traditio wrote:
My only point is that considerations of fairness supervene considerations of fun. You should have fun within the constraints of fairness.

And this is completely ing absurd. "Fairness" is nothing more than a tool for ensuring that both people have fun. Everyone enjoys winning (or at least feeling like they have a chance), so paying attention to game balance helps create fun games. But you go off into incoherent nonsense once you make the claim that a game where both players have fun is somehow morally wrong because they're having fun the wrong way. You're treating fairness as the end goal of the game instead of just a means to achieve the real end goal. And your argument becomes nothing more than "STOP HAVING THE WRONG KIND OF FUN!!!!".

Traditio wrote:
Peregrine, I fully admit that you should play warhammer to have fun. If you are not having fun in a game of warhammer, then something has gone horribly, horribly wrong. My only point is that considerations of fairness supervene considerations of fun. You should have fun within the constraints of fairness.

But simulating war IS unfair!
It should have never reached that point.
The reasoning for conflict is unfair.
The entire game is a fabrication.
To plot against your opponent to gain the upper hand is unethical, we should work together.

Please explain where you draw the line to have fun?

I understand things better now, you have decided to enter a more inflexible standard of behavior and have attempted to evangelize it to the barbarians.
You did not see the pitchforks and torches?
You have decided to martyr yourself in this thread?

Oh my.

Traditio wrote:

Noir wrote:How old are you?

Old enough to be working on a Ph.D. program.

Now THAT scares me.

 Peregrine wrote:

Traditio wrote:


Linguistic acts are per se ordered to the expression of mental acts/judgments of the mind. To speak is to express what is "on your mind," so to speak. When you tell a lie, you use a linguistic act in a way which is subversive to its natural ordering.

So let me guess, you're a philosophy PhD? Or did you just minor in it?

Meanwhile, out in the real world away from abstract philosophical arguments, anyone with a bit of common sense understands the difference between "lying" in a game where everyone playing the game has agreed (whether implicitly or explicitly) that lying is within the rules and lying in a context where honesty is expected.

Why Peregrine, is that distaste?
Did we just become best friends?

Edit
Toofast, I wouldn't worry about it. I just helped a 19 year old get into a PhD program at an ivy league school for chemistry, which is arguably tougher than most majors. More time consuming too.
Kids as young as 16 get a Bachelor's in the easier majors.

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

I came back to the thread too late, I have the quote somewhere around here but I think I used it earlier on in this very thread

Next time I won't be watching a movie Blacksails

I was going to call Geek a nerd again just for you.

You're lucky this time, ImaGeek.

Traditio wrote:
I wasn't trying to misrepresent you. At any rate, you're wrong. Fun and fairness are not equally important. The obligation to act fairly obtains universally. There is no such obligation to have fun.

Is...is this serious?

You are aware we're talking about a game, where the primary concern with playing a game is to have fun, right? I mean, I don't know how or why you play games, but I'd suggest you're doing it wrong. Games are quite literally made to have fun. Its their purpose. Everything else is secondary or a means to that end.

All the rest of this philosophical nonsense is irrelevant to this topic.

Well, that settles that.

17 pages, and nobody can agree to be decent human beings.

"Fairness" is not a requirement of something being fun per se. I have played many scenarios and campaigns in which game are intentionally unbalanced as befits the scene that is trying to be set or as a result of how a campaign has progressed. I have played any number of games like this in which I had little to no chance to win with my respective force but still had tons of fun because their was no expectation of true balance and nothing was being sprung.

Ive even had fun losing to powergamers that are good natured and fun people.

The problem comes when you are expecting fair and balanced and you run into that guy who takes pride and sometimes even sadistic satisfaction from jumping you unexpectedly with something. The guy that thinks warhammer is a sport and that he owes you no respect of civility. He's the guy that says "get better" as if aspiring to be a tool like him is a worthy goal...

Luckily you can usually spot those guys a mile away and simply avoid them...