Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was just reviewing my earlier list for a tournament, when i realized that this list wouldn't do too well against some of the opponents that i might be facing and what they would run. My main concerns are tyranids with a double flying hive tyrant with the doom, and Necrons with Cantopic Wraiths.

Here is the list:

HQ
Bloodthirster 275
Unholy Might

Elites
Flamers (6) 143
Flamers (6) 143

Troops
Plaguebearers (5) 75
Plaguebearers (5) 75
Plaguebearers (5) 75

Fast Attack
Screamers (9) 225

Now i was thinking that the bloodthirster with unholy might would be a good way to take out both the doom of malantai and the Wraiths with his s8 attacks, but I'm still debating on taking a HQ that is lot cheaper and investing the other points into more screamers. Another thing i was wondering was whether or not i should take two units of about 7 plaguebearers instead of taking three of 5.

Let me know what you guys think,
Thisisnotpancho

what About Following:

The Blue Scribes
Herald, Disk, Boon of Mutation

6 Flamers, Pyrocaster
6 Flamers, Pyrocaster

5 Horrors, Bolt
5 Horrors, Bolt
5 Horrors, Bolt, Changeling

9 Screamers

you have Bolts to kill doom, and 2 HQ in your flamers that can spawn him.
Blue Scribes also gives you access to pavane.

 Valek wrote:
what About Following:

The Blue Scribes
Herald, Disk, Boon of Mutation

6 Flamers, Pyrocaster
6 Flamers, Pyrocaster

5 Horrors, Bolt
5 Horrors, Bolt
5 Horrors, Bolt, Changeling

9 Screamers

you have Bolts to kill doom, and 2 HQ in your flamers that can spawn him.
Blue Scribes also gives you access to pavane.

I like it, but i'm afraid that the troops aren't survivable enough. I like horrors, but they only have a 4+ with t3. I feel that those HQs won't do too well against wraiths, they will just get eaten up and dissappear pretty quickly. But i don't know, I have never played Blue Scribes or horrors so i don't know how they play

Ah, so you have a Pyrocaster in there?

9 Screamers looks good... Surprised you aren't taking more! : P

I see you've reconsidered on the BT I also see your point on the whole wraiths and doom though. I'm wondering if at this point level you would benefit from using msu tactics on your flamers. Perhaps going 3 squads of 3? You'll be able to take on one more unit than before if need be and they have the potential to wreak more initial havoc as more flame templates are being laid down. With the points saved, you could then move down to your 2 squads of 7 plague bearers and add some more screamers, but I would add the screamers and then split your lump sum into two equal squads of 6. Also does your BT have blessing cause with might he should be 5pts less. Thoughts?

you need critical mass on the flamers, the heralds go in there, so shooting will kill units. Pyrocaster is there to accept a challenge against enemy char, so your herald lives, or to challenge a solo charging char and keep him in combat longer, that way you can spawn him easier...

Even wraiths will be hard pressed, you got 6 Flamer templates and the shots of the herald and when they want to charge you will take 6D3 flamer shots again... that is what makes this unit so good. With some luck you can spawn some of them.

The horrors are survivable enough, just drop them away from hth units and shoot up the rest, they are sublime troop killers.

 Valek wrote:
you need critical mass on the flamers, the heralds go in there, so shooting will kill units. Pyrocaster is there to accept a challenge against enemy char, so your herald lives, or to challenge a solo charging char and keep him in combat longer, that way you can spawn him easier...

Even wraiths will be hard pressed, you got 6 Flamer templates and the shots of the herald and when they want to charge you will take 6D3 flamer shots again... that is what makes this unit so good. With some luck you can spawn some of them.

The horrors are survivable enough, just drop them away from hth units and shoot up the rest, they are sublime troop killers.

Wraiths would be hardpressed to be threatened by flamers. with an average of 6 overwatch wounds by 6 flamers, it would kill a wraith on average. Then the wraiths would completely wreck flamers. Then they would basically all die without doing anything in combat. That would be an exchange of 35 or possibly 45 points for a total of about 233 with a herald. They just don't do too well against wraiths.

I'd say you need a FMC to help deal with enemy flyers. Most Guard and Necron players will be fielding 2-3 flyers at this point level. Personally I like a Lord of Change as he can bolt and otherwise shoot at the flyers whilst also vector striking (but at lowly S6).

Wraiths would be hardpressed to be threatened by flamers. with an average of 6 overwatch wounds by 6 flamers, it would kill a wraith on average. Then the wraiths would completely wreck flamers. Then they would basically all die without doing anything in combat. That would be an exchange of 35 or possibly 45 points for a total of about 233 with a herald. They just don't do too well against wraiths.

Name me a shooting unit that does well when charged by Wraiths? Yes if the wraiths charge the flamers with the flamers having not shot at them the wraiths win easily. However you shouldn't be letting that happen. They should get at least 1 turn of shooting. You've a decent chance of turning a wraith into Spawn particularly as you can use it into combat. Wraiths are a bad match up for flamers as their main purpose is to deny cover and armour saves. The Wraiths 3++ means they don't care about that...

I think your list can work. The bloodthirster is a beatstick, and its good to have at least one of those in a list. Flamers are excellent at nearly everything. Screamers also fit this bill just as well. I personally find flamers to be better than screamers.

I would not fret to much over the dual-tyrant list.

I also don't think that at 1k points your going to see 2-3 flyers in every necron/IG list. 3 vendettas is 390 points. That's not a lot of points left over for troops, tanks, etc. At the 2k point level, I agree you will see a lot of vendettas, but at the 1k point level I don't see it.

Edit : Do you know the rules of the tourney? Will it be NOVA format? Will it be book missions? Those play a big part in how you construct your army.

I also don't think that at 1k points your going to see 2-3 flyers in every necron/IG list. 3 vendettas is 390 points. That's not a lot of points left over for troops, tanks, etc. At the 2k point level, I agree you will see a lot of vendettas, but at the 1k point level I don't see it.

For Necroms the flyers are transports so I'd expect about 3 (at least 2). 2 Vendettas is only 260 points and even 390 points isn't a bad investment in a Tournament with so little AA around these days.

It depends on the tourney format.

Lets say that your playing the NOVA format where vehicles cannot score quarters. That means that in 1/3 of your games you are at a huge disadvantage since 39% of your army cannot contest. Your opponent only has to worry about the rest of your army, and keep more than you have so he can hold the quarters.

The mission types play a huge role in 'whats effective'. Sure, the army with 39% of its army invested in vendettas will rock on objectives/KP missions, where it can drop its troops where they need to be and earn KPs - but they suffere on quarters missions.

And you can't go to a tourney, lose 1/3 of your games, then expect to place.

Given I'll be at the tournament, I'll answer some questions.
Book missions, local meta has a bunch of Tau, a Few SM, few IG, and Nids, plus i believe one other Necron player aside from myself.

If your doing book missions, I would suggest breaking your flamers and screamers into multiple units.

You have 12 flamers total, so instead run this.
- 4 flamers
- 4 flamers
- 4 flamers

Likewise with your screamers, do this
- 3 screamers
- 3 screamers
- 3 screamers

The reason I am suggesting this is from that iGuy91 just said. If your expecting on seeing a lot of shooty armies (and Tau/IG/SM) are pretty darn shooty, you want to limit how many of your squads they can counter in one round of shooting in order to enable you to make your required attacks.

 labmouse42 wrote:
If your doing book missions, I would suggest breaking your flamers and screamers into multiple units.

You have 12 flamers total, so instead run this.
- 4 flamers
- 4 flamers
- 4 flamers

Likewise with your screamers, do this
- 3 screamers
- 3 screamers
- 3 screamers

The reason I am suggesting this is from that iGuy91 just said. If your expecting on seeing a lot of shooty armies (and Tau/IG/SM) are pretty darn shooty, you want to limit how many of your squads they can counter in one round of shooting in order to enable you to make your required attacks.

Interesting. I have had a lot of other people tell me that screamers and flamers in larger groups are just better, I'm not sure what to take as the better option.

What if you traded out the BT with a DP with wings. He could take a Mark and then take a beating while saving a hand full of points... Maybe you could take two.

 Adrian Fue Fue wrote:
What if you traded out the BT with a DP with wings. He could take a Mark and then take a beating while saving a hand full of points... Maybe you could take two.

Hmm. I like the Nurgle DP, and i think this would be how i would run him:
Wings, Iron Hide, Mark of Nurgle, Cloud of Flies, Noxious touch, Breath of chaos

But then again, he would have to smash to insta-kill wraiths and the doom, only getting 2 attacks (3 on the charge) while the Bloodthirster wouldn't (6 attacks on the charge, 5 normally). And wraiths and the doom would need 5s to hit the bloodthirster instead of 4s. Plus the bloodthirster would have a 4+ instead of a 5+ invuln. Just food for thought

thisisnotpancho wrote:
[Interesting. I have had a lot of other people tell me that screamers and flamers in larger groups are just better, I'm not sure what to take as the better option.

Think about why multiple units is better.

* You can contest more objectives
* Opponents can only shoot at one unit at a time. (extra rollover wounds are lost if there are no models left to kill in the unit)
* You can assault multiple things without a disordered charge
* You can target more models with shooting.
* You can use one squad to eat an overwatch
* You can split them apart and effect different areas of the board at the same time - or keep them close together to focus on one area
* When you drop your flamers, all of them can use their flame ability, as you can't flame over your own models
* If your models are caught in assault, there are less that will be lost.

Now, why are larger units better?
* Less KPs given up. Book missions only have 1/6 of the missions as KP
* Less chance of breaking from shooting. Your fearless, you don't care.
* Longer to kill the entire unit in assault. This is true, but I would rather not be in assault.

When someone gives you advice, asking 'why' is a very good idea. Ask the people who suggest big units 'why'.

 labmouse42 wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
[Interesting. I have had a lot of other people tell me that screamers and flamers in larger groups are just better, I'm not sure what to take as the better option.

Think about why multiple units is better.

* You can contest more objectives
* Opponents can only shoot at one unit at a time. (extra rollover wounds are lost if there are no models left to kill in the unit)
* You can assault multiple things without a disordered charge
* You can target more models with shooting.
* You can use one squad to eat an overwatch
* You can split them apart and effect different areas of the board at the same time - or keep them close together to focus on one area
* When you drop your flamers, all of them can use their flame ability, as you can't flame over your own models
* If your models are caught in assault, there are less that will be lost.

Now, why are larger units better?
* Less KPs given up. Book missions only have 1/6 of the missions as KP
* Less chance of breaking from shooting. Your fearless, you don't care.
* Longer to kill the entire unit in assault. This is true, but I would rather not be in assault.

When someone gives you advice, asking 'why' is a very good idea. Ask the people who suggest big units 'why'.

Hmm, i think that smaller groups just wouldn't be as threatening. They would be more potent together rather than apart

Here are some more reasons large units are better:

-Flamers/Horrors generate significant overwatch damage in large groups
-Can concentrate models more effectively (try to deepstrike 9 flamers on a single flank in 3 different groups)
-Even after taking shooting, the remnants are still dangerous to assault (want your 1 screamer to be killed by fire warriors)
-Protect your Warlord and help prevent First Blood

I think there is a good argument that can be made for both, but this one is being presented a bit more biased against large units than necessary.

Blood thirster should be karos. He is disgusting now. Flying monster with a rerollable 3+ yes please!

 Icelord wrote:
Blood thirster should be karos. He is disgusting now. Flying monster with a rerollable 3+ yes please!

Hah would love to, but 333 points in a 1k list is just too many. Even though i have a 275 point model, i still have enough points to have lethal elites and fast attack units, while still having decent troops (although it would be hard for daemon troops to be called "decent")

I don't think large units are bad and they certainly have their place, but at 1000pts it's gonna be hard, especially when most of your units cost 20+pts per man. At this point level I think you have to consider what is more cost effective: msu or larger units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With msu at 1000pts, I feel you'll be more flexible and ready toreact to changes on the battlefield better.

I agree with this.... MSU is a better mix, and I think your bloodthirster is the win vs Necrons.

Looking over your list I wonder about mine.... Why screamers over seekers? I run seekers and daemonettes so I am curious.

 Adrian Fue Fue wrote:
I agree with this.... MSU is a better mix, and I think your bloodthirster is the win vs Necrons.

Looking over your list I wonder about mine.... Why screamers over seekers? I run seekers and daemonettes so I am curious.

What's msu?

And screamers just seem to be better than seekers. They can easily get first blood when they drop (and i usually do) with their slashing attacks. They also have two wounds compared to the seekers' one. They also have ap2 attacks with armorbane. I have never owned nor fielded seekers, but screamers just seem like the better choice. Seekers have a lot of attacks and are cheap, but are only s3 and have one wound. This means that they are fragile, and only kill things that have armor at random with rending.

Msu is multiple scoring units

or multiple small units. At least that is what Dakka is telling me and what I usually go with.