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that games of 3000 9and up) are Apocalypse size. My question to you folks is; Is 3000 point reasonable should someone want to use a super heavy OR would you hold off using one unless it's a larger game?

That's what they recommend as the minimum Apoc game, isn't it? You still need to agree on playing Apoc with your opponent for Superheavies. Or agree on it otherwise.

We let people use super heavies in any game. With 2 house rules:

A: no blast beyond standard 5" size

B: each structure point or shield = heavy unit slot. If over 3, it only gets three

At first everyone was throwing SH around. But after a few weeks we all figured out that with those rules they were at best balanced.

You could use a Super Heavy as your sole model in a 500 point game if you like, you can design a scenario where you have to destroy it. 3K is the recommended threshold for SHs, and it's certainly a good size, but like I said, you can use SHs at any level if you discuss it with your opponent. The Battle Missions book even has a 1500pt scenario where 3 Baneblades face off vs a standard army.

The only Apoc game I have played so far was 5000 vs 5000 and each side was only allowed 1 Super Heavy unit. Looking back, it kinda seemed like a 5000 point game was still almost too small for them because they just absolutely ran amok all game and seemed unstoppable. One of the Apoc units was Anggrath the Unbound, the other was an Eldar Revenant Titan.

It really depends. Something like a Baneblade you can really play in a normal game without it being unbalanced at all really given that it's basically roughly equivalent to 3 Leman Russ tanks in capability and survivability.

The issue is when you get units sporting D weapons that auto-pen, auto-wound, usually are blast templates, etc and just turn it into a slaughter.

Also, superheavy costs much past Baneblade level units are...very generous. The Warlord 2500pt titan is really more reasonably worth 5-6000pts, the 4000pt Emperor Titan that GW threw up rules for is probably more appropriate at 10,000pts, the 1250pt Heirophant is probably closer to 2000-3000pts in terms of value. They get weird.

 Vaktathi wrote:
the 1250pt Heirophant is probably closer to 2000-3000pts in terms of value.

The Heirophant is hard to price properly, pretty much like any Tyranid. But something to remember - it's basically a D-strength weapon magnet, which is what the Tyranids direly need in Apocalypse, when D strength weapons ID anything short of a Gargantuan or Superheavy. When a whole Carnifex brood goes up in smoke to one D strength hit, it's more painful for the Tyranids than a Predator or two for Space Marines.

The Heirophant gives Tyranids a D strength distraction. If it gets within 48" it's rather killy, yes, but it's main purpose is making sure those ID templates are hitting it rather than the swarm around it.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
the 1250pt Heirophant is probably closer to 2000-3000pts in terms of value.

The Heirophant is hard to price properly, pretty much like any Tyranid. But something to remember - it's basically a D-strength weapon magnet, which is what the Tyranids direly need in Apocalypse, when D strength weapons ID anything short of a Gargantuan or Superheavy. When a whole Carnifex brood goes up in smoke to one D strength hit, it's more painful for the Tyranids than a Predator or two for Space Marines.

The Heirophant gives Tyranids a D strength distraction. If it gets within 48" it's rather killy, yes, but it's main purpose is making sure those ID templates are hitting it rather than the swarm around it.

There's no reason to take Carni's as a single brood as opposed to single model units in Apocalypse, and tanks are often massed close enough together to get multiple hits from one D template as well.

The Heirophant's abilities really are far too much for a mere 1250pts, it's got huge T and W stat's, coupled with 16 S10 shots each turn, it'll shoot down 1500pts of baneblades before they shoot it down for sure, and they lack the impressive CC ability/defense the Heirophant does. This isn't an issue unique to the Heirophant however, as I said, much past Baneblade level, the realities of costing for Apocalypse units go right out the window for almost everything be it Gargantuan Creature or Superheavy vehicle.

Re: superheavies in general:

It depends on the superheavy. A Malcador is terrible and worse than its point value in Leman Russes, and I'd have no problem fighting one in a standard game of 40k (even at 1000 points). In fact I'd be happy that my opponent brought it instead of spending those points on something much more effective. A Reaver titan, on the other hand, is just massively overpowered and will quickly ruin a standard 40k game unless the other side brings nothing but dedicated titan killing units.

In general the "fairness" of them depends on what proportion of the point value they take up. A couple Baneblades in a 3000 point game are fine, since they're each still small enough that you're fielding an army. On the other hand, a Warlord titan in a 3000 point game is going to dominate the game, and reduce it to little more than "can I kill the Warlord before it tables me". In general I'd say aim for half the total points on each side, at most, in superheavies, with no single model of more than 20% of the total.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Also, superheavy costs much past Baneblade level units are...very generous. The Warlord 2500pt titan is really more reasonably worth 5-6000pts, the 4000pt Emperor Titan that GW threw up rules for is probably more appropriate at 10,000pts, the 1250pt Heirophant is probably closer to 2000-3000pts in terms of value. They get weird.

This is the real problem, and it starts with the Warhound. Compare a dual turbolaser Warhound to a Shadowsword: 4x the firepower, less than double the cost. That's just plain stupid, and very obviously a "buy this expensive model and use it" rule. Apocalypse is a lot more balanced if you just ban titans and GCs entirely.