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I've recently been struck by a desire to start playing Flames of War and, like a lot of players, have been drawn to the Germans. The late war period was a pretty obvious choice for me, though I've tinkered with some North Africa lists also. Below is the Grenadier Kompanie -- at the 1,500pt level -- that I'm looking to field. The list was built using the Grey Wolf book through easyarmy.com, which was super user friendly and helpful. Any recommendations are welcome.

HQ Section: 65pts
CO w/Panzerfaust SMG team
XO w/Panzerfaust SMG team

COMBAT PLTS: 360pts
3x Grenadier PLTs w/Panzerfaust SMG CMD team, 4x rifle/MG teams each

WEAPONS PLT: 140pts
1x HMG PLT w/Panzerfaust SMG CMD team, 4x MG42s

REG SUPPORT PLTs: 110pts
AT Gun PLT w/2x PaK 40s, RSO tractors

DIV SUPPORT PLTs: 820pts
Schwere Panzer PLT w/2x Tiger I Es
StuG PLT w/3x StuG Gs
Rocket Launcher PLT w/3x 15cm NW41s

Since this is an infantry companie I can likely count on being on the defensive the majority of the time. Chances are I can also count on having to keep three PLTs off the board in scenarios that call for reserves. With that end in mind, I look at this company as being basically two distinct entities: an objective holding section and a counter attack section.

Objective Holding:
This falls to the poor, bloody Grenadier PLTs and their nominated support elements. Two Grenadier PLTs with the attached HMG sections will have to dig into cover and hold the line. Their job is to babysit objectives and wait for the cavalry. Being veterans, this should make them fairly difficult to hit and they should have the necessary fire power to conduct good defensive fires against assaults. Their Confident rating should allow them to pass most morale checks as well.
The NW41 section can provide some decent fire support to the Grenadiers, especially against infantry units. These launchers are cheaper than artillery, have similar range and can fire barrages or smoke rounds. They don't have trucks so won't be very mobile, but if I can put a terrain piece between them and the enemy they should be able to fire with impunity.
Lastly is the AT Gun PLT, whose job is fairly obvious; kill tanks. The PaK 40 isn't the best AT gun available, but its price is certainly right. The veteran gun crews should be able to score hits somewhat reliably, and they are guanteed to destroy or bail out any Sherman they hit. Deploying them in cover should somewhat increase their survivability and make enemy tank PLTs think twice before just charging toward objectives. I would like at least one more, even if it means fielding slightly weaker PaK 36Rs, but pts are tight.

Counter Attacking:
The remainder of the company, if held in reserve, is dedicated to taking back lost ground or making late game runs for objectives. The third Grenadier PLT is included in this portion of the company. I would have prefered some motorized/mechanized Panzergrenadiers for this, but they aren't available in this Grey Wolf list. Storm Trooper moves can help them either run for objectives or move with my tanks to support floundering sister PLTs.
The StuGs are a decent middle-of-the-road choice for armor support. Having a slight edge over a Sherman, they are better able to engage enemy armor than cheaper tank hunters. They also have slightly better stats than the Panzer MK4 for virtually the same price. Especially if they come onto the table into the enemy flank, they should be able to seriously damage enemy tank PLTs.
Lastly are the Tigers. These are likely somewhat controversial at the 1500pt level, but I really wanted them. What's a late war German force without Tigers? When they come on from reserve they can be potential game changers by teaming with the StuGs to break enemy units at the moment of truth. Plus, you never know what Tiger Ace skill you may get.

I know the list lacks any AAA element but, at just 1500pts, you can't have everything. Hopefully that same rule applies to the enemy and their air power.

So, that's about it. If you more experienced players feel there are things I'm seriously overlooking, or identify ways to squeeze greater benefit from the pts, please let me know. If you think this list will crush everything in its path and reverse the fortunes of the Reich, let me know also, haha. Thanks for reading!

At the 1500pt lvl, there should not be much in the way that is going to require two Tigers. You have some excellent anti-tank options, but I don't see you needing it all. The AT gun platoon and either the Tigers or StuGs would suffice. Drop one, add in some AAA. In 3rd edition, aircraft are pretty hard hitting. The drop in points will also let you beef up the grenadier platoons to full strength. Remember, these guys are going to be holding objectives or over running them as your armour + arty pushes the EN off the objectives.

Just some thoughts.

Mat

I'd keep the tigers and swap the pak40's for some armoured 3.7cm AA halftracks. Otherwise it looks cool. Don't forget that if you combat attach the MG's then that brings you down to 7 platoons and you can only deploy 3 out of 7 in a reserves game, not 4.

Well I reworked the list a bit to work in some AAA since everybody seems to agree that it's necessary.

HQ: 60pts
CO w/Panzerfaust SMG team
XO w/Panzerknacker SMG team

COMBAT PLTS: 360pts
3x Grenadier PLTs w/Panzerfaust SMG team, 4x rifle/MG teams each

WEAPONS PLT: 135pts
HMG PLT w/ 4x MG42s

REG SUPPORT PLT: 105pts
AT Gun PLT w/2x PaK 40s

DIV SUPPORT PLTS: 840PTS
Panzer PLT w/3x StuGs
StuG PLT w/3x StuGs
Rocket Launcher PLT w/3x 15cm NW41s
AA PLT w/3x armored Kfz 3.7cm halftracks

If I attach the HMGs to two of the Grenadier PLTs that will give me 8x PLTs overall. That should allow me to put the necessary Objective Holding elements -- 2x Grenadier PLTs, AT Guns and rockets -- onto the table first, then bring the rest on from reserve. FOW V3 has reportedly beefed up the effectiveness of air craft, but has anybody seen people fielding them at the 1500pt level?

There's no reason not to field aircraft at that points level certainly, it's not prohibitively expensive for ruskies. It can be quite easy to negate if you have enough terrain to stand near but the AA is insurance against enemy planes later in the game when your tanks come on.

What about using 88s to pull double duty as an AT and AA section? They're certainly expensive, but come out to be cheaper than fielding two more specialized units.

Also, the point about 7 PLTs and the reserve rules throws a bit of a wrench into the plan. If the companie had 6 PLTs, would I start with 3 on and 3 off the table? Having the Objective Holders consist of HQ, 1x large Grenadier PLT w/1x attached HMG PLT, a section of 88s and a section of rocket launchers could theoretically work. The other Grenadier PLT could come on from reserve with the StuGs and Tigers to wrap up at the end.

Ive considered 88s myself in the same capacity the Big mentioned. However people in my club seem to jump out of the woodwork to tell me its a poor idea to have the stationary unit like that.

Does anyone have any positive experiences with 88s?

That was my main AT gun asset in my 5. SS. They worked very well vs. flanking T34/85s and IS-2s, and are great for killing aircraft. Spend the 5pts and buy them some transports.

Well I went back to the list again to reconstruct the force into just 6 PLTs. This is sort of based on the assumption that in reserve scenarios I'll start with 3 PLTs on, 3 PLTs off of the table. It's got some additional character that is probably controversial, but I'm liking it for now.

HQ: 140pts
CO w/Panzerfaust SMG team
XO w/Feldwebel Windgruber, Panzerfaust SMG team
Mortar section w/2x 8cm GW34s

COMBAT PLTS: 330pts
2x Grenadier PLTs w/Panzerfaust SMG CMD team, 6x Rifle/MG sections each

WEAPONS PLT: 70pts
HMG section w/2x MG42s - combat attachment to a Grenadier PLT

SUPPORT PLTS: 960pts
Tank PLT w/3x StuG Gs
Tank PLT w/2x Tiger I Es
Rocket Launcher PLT w/3x 21cm NW42s, Kfz 11 halftracks
AA Gun PLT w/2x 8.8cm FlaK36, extra crews, Luftwaffe

The plan remains the same with 1 Grenadier PLT, the NW42s and 88s starting on the board. The Grenadiers get Windgruber, an attached HMG section and the HQ mortar section. Windgruber is a Confident Veteran and should pass most morale checks. He also lets the Grenadiers hit on a 2+ in assaults, which should make this PLT pretty tough to move. If Windgruber proves to be a dud, I'll trade him for a Panzerknacker SMG team and a Panzerschreck team. The mortars can shoot smoke which allows the larger 12cm NW42s to concentrate on enemy infantry. The 88s should be able to pull double duty as both an AT and AA unit. Equiping them with the extra crews should help negate their Trained rating, which makes them a real bargain.

The tank PLTs and remaining Grenadier PLT, with the CO, can come on from reserve and do the necessary mopping up. If it really becomes absolutely necessary that I take a seperate AA unit then I'll trade the Tigers for 3x StuGs and get rid of Windgruber. That will allow me to field 3x armored 3.7mm Kfz 7/2 half tracks without detracting from the rest of the force greatly, and give the HMG SMG CMD team a Panzerknacker. If the AA units prove to be really effective and enemy air craft aren't a threat, I may just keep the Kfz 7/2s and run them with the reserve Grenadier PLT as extra support.

Looks good so far. My only question would be, to anyone with a better grasp of the rules than I, is are the 88's able to sit on the edge of the wood for concealment and still fire at aircraft? I imagine the answer is yes, if the plane can be seen without drawing line of sight through the trees, which limits shooting to 6" range. Thus, they ought to be positioned behind the main line so that enemy aircraft are more likely to fly into the more clear front arc.

Personally I have had bad experiences with relying on 88s to deal with aircraft. They're designed for killing bombers which aren't represented in this game at all. Haven't tried them in V3 yet but in V2 that 'heavy AA' feature kinda relegated them to full time AT roles.

Depends, if you're playing soviets, their sturmoviks get the Flying Tank rule, which the 88's would be good against. I suppose my biggest worry is that the reluctant trained 88s could get pinned down early on and never unpin again...

The thing with Tiger I's in LW is that with all the new LW books, there is a lot of stuff that can take out Tigers quite easily now a days and they are more of a point sink and a liability then an actual threat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tigers in MW though... kick ass.

88s are terrible AA guns. 3.7s are the best.

A plt of 88s get 2 shots at best, hitting on 3s and killing on 3s (4s vs Soviets), about a 2/3 chance of killing one soviet plane
ETA- Didn't catch those were RT 8.8s. They have even less of a chance of shooting down a Soviet a/c. 2*(1/2*1/2), or a 50% chance of shooting down 1 a/c.

Three 3.7s get 12 shots, hitting on 3s and killing on 4(5s vs Soviets), for an average of 2 2/3 Soviet planes, 4 Western planes.

Three Quad 2cm get 18 shots, but average 2 Soviet planes, 4 Western.

I personally run with both 88s and SP Quad 2cms. That way my more mobile platoons can benefit from the long guns and the in close AAA.

However, it's all about how you envision your army to work. If AAA is low on your priority, and you need some good AT, the 88s are great. And why reluctant trained 88s? That is only if your using the Luftwaffe crew.

Yeah, I opted for the Luftwaffe crews for the 88s because it makes them such a bargain. I put the extra crew upgrade on both guns so I'll get 6 shots per turn, and their range makes them a threat you really can't afford to ignore. I could trade them for a 2-3 gun section of PaK40s and likely get the same AT performance; maybe I'll play a few games and see how it goes. I think the 88s are a good addition if the enemy has no air craft.

If the enemy does have aircraft, it might be a different story. I'll likely have to trade the Tigers for StuGs and drop Windgruber, as I said earlier, to get some 3.7cm Kfz 7/2s into the lineup. Even if there are no aircraft I may field them anyways; they'd make a good support element for the eventual counter attack.

SP AA works great for pinning EN infantry prior to assaults.

So the next fairly obvious question is how do you handle a Grenadier force like this? Is my basic tactical outline fairly sound or am I off the mark? It seems like the Grenadier PLTs basically have to dig into cover and wait it out. Maybe the AT element can pick off a few tanks, but otherwise everyone is just waiting for help to arrive. Any subtleties or tricks of the trade I should pick up?

A fairly obvious one to sart with; if you're bringing 88s, ambush with them. Assuming you've got extra crew on each, 6 shots at short range from a wooded area will mash just about any tank platoon. If the enemy manage to overrun the area you were planning to ambush with them, then have them appear somewhere behind your infantry with a good field of fire. That way you should be able to splat one tank platoon and drive off any aircraft on the enemy's next turn.

Speaking of ambushes, I have a question. Can an element, like a Panzerschrek section added onto the CO HQ, be placed in ambush seperate from the rest of the HQ element? I'd much rather sacrifice a 20pt Panzershrek team, or cheaper AT section, than my 88s. Thoughts?

Noob here, but unless I'm mistaken you can ambush with your 88's and be anywhere within your shooting range. Generally, you'll want to be just within 16", but one round of shooting should take care of whatever you are ambushing.

PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong (it's been known to happen).

Luftwaffe 88's are cheap, personally I use them as distractions and area denial weapons, they are cheap enough to be essentially disposal.

You can only ambush with full platoons. this could be your 2IC and your HQ panzershrek team but to be honest that panzershrek is much better off in one of your grenadier platoons.

Who are you likely to be facing? If you are playing in an environment with lots of heavy armour 88's don't cut it in late war. Even Panthers can cause issues for 88's.

I am not a fan of AA, its only really useful if you think that you will have a lot of platoons in the open (ie artillery). All you need to do is hug cover (which you should be doing anyway) and airpower loses a lot of its sting.
Air power is something that can work but more often than not doesn't, I tend to simply ignore it.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Noob here, but unless I'm mistaken you can ambush with your 88's and be anywhere within your shooting range. Generally, you'll want to be just within 16", but one round of shooting should take care of whatever you are ambushing.

PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong (it's been known to happen).

I believe your 8.8 cm guns are listed as Immobile, which means they cannot be closer than 16" to any enemy team within LOS.
So when ambushing them, you will be just outside of 16" when springing the ambush.

This also goes for any gun team that is listed as Heavy or any vehicles that are equipped with a gun that is rated as Bunker Buster.

 ThirdUltra wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Noob here, but unless I'm mistaken you can ambush with your 88's and be anywhere within your shooting range. Generally, you'll want to be just within 16", but one round of shooting should take care of whatever you are ambushing.

PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong (it's been known to happen).

I believe your 8.8 cm guns are listed as Immobile, which means they cannot be closer than 16" to any enemy team within LOS.
So when ambushing them, you will be just outside of 16" when springing the ambush.

This also goes for any gun team that is listed as Heavy or any vehicles that are equipped with a gun that is rated as Bunker Buster.

Thanks. I watched a demo game where an ambush was sprung from outside of 16 inches, and it pretty much wrecked the Shermans being ambushed.

One thing you need to know is that this list will bleed points. i would recommend spending points on a whole platoon of Paks, drop a grenadier, and max out your grenadiers-they are to small to not be.

I'm not totally sure what you mean. My Grenadier PLTs have three SQDs each and can't get any bigger. I thought about going with PaK40s over the 88s, and may after I've played a few games and have a chance to judge their performance. I doubt I can afford more than two PaK40s, so I'd be trading 6x 88 shots from Trained Luftwaffe crews for 4x 7.62 shots from Veteran Grenadiers. Is that Trained-Veteran rating really going to make a huge difference? If not, I'd rather stick with the 88s due to the area denial "fear factor" and, besides, the 88 is the iconic German AT gun.

On a different note, I have a question regarding Heavy PLTs and combat attaching them to Grenadier PLTs. If the Heavy PLT has two HMG sections, can one be assigned to each of my Grenadier PLTs, or do they both have to go to one PLT? How does that work if the Heavy PLT also includes a mortar section? Can you attach the HMG sections to individual PLTs and then leave the mortar section as an independent PLT entity?

Trained to Veteran makes no difference to YOU, per se, it just makes them easier for the enemy to hit in shooting. In assault, being veteran improves your chances to hit... but if your 88's get assaulted, they're pretty much dead.
I'd say the biggest downfall of luftwaffe 88's are their reluctant motivation (have I already mentioned this?) as they could spend most of the game pinned if unlucky.

Can you attach the HMG sections to individual PLTs and then leave the mortar section as an independent PLT entity?

I believe that this is indeed the case.

Big S'arnt wrote:
Can you attach the HMG sections to individual PLTs and then leave the mortar section as an independent PLT entity?

Yes.

88's in general are easier to hit due to their size and reluctant trained troops will die/flee very easily, they make perfect mortar targets, return fire will shred them. PaK 40s on the other hand will last quite a lot longer simply becasue they are harder to hit. In general I prefer PaK 40s but RT 88s are cheap in late war so they aren't a bad choice.

Why is it that the 88s are so much easier to target with indirect/counter battery assets? I understand that the 88 is a large gun, but can't some of that vulnerability be nullified by positioning them in cover? I could see counter batter fire being a major problem for my NW42s due to the associated smoke trail, but why the 88s? Is it all just due to their Trained rating?

Also, has anybody else bothered to put Windgruber into their force? I certainly can see some potential benefits of attaching him to a Grenadier PLT, but is he going to make a significant difference? Dropping him, trading the 88s and downgrading the NW42s to NW41s would give me the points for 3x PaK40s...good trade?

Trained rating means at worst the enemy need a 6 to hit (trained is 3+ base, 4+for gone to ground, 5+ for concealed and GTG, and 6+ for both plus long range) so you might find artillery ranging in on them and then repeat bombarding till they are dead. Nebelwerfers ARE slightly more vunerable due to the smoke trails but the enemy won't be firing at them too much assuming they are going to use their artillery to pin enemy defenses to be assaulted.