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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 03:10:13
Subject: Meditations on rarely-used IG units
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Flashy Flashgitz
USA
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Just a few thoughts on units we rarely see in IG lists... I think they might be more viable than classical thought dictates, but the ideas need playtests. Some food for thought. What do you think?
HQ
Primaris Psykers
While we do see these guys in low-point games, I am tempted to try them out at higher points values. They get access to some good disciplines of psychic powers and their regular powers (actually, power-Lightning Arc) aren't too bad either. They bring a force weapon (axe?) for a very low points cost and an invul save, so might be worth a try.
Techpriest Enginseers
6th actually seems to make them better with the ability to fix HPs. However, they still cost a lot-one Techpriest with, say, 2 Servitors to fix stuff reliably cost as much as half a LRBT! So while trying to keep up with Hellhounds is pointless and trying to fix Chimeras is wasteful, I do consider fielding one with a Leman Russ-heavy formation-Since Leman Russes can't move faster than infantry anymore, Techpriests are actually able to keep up and repair it along the way. This could be great for Russes with short range or self destructive tendencies (Punisher, Demolisher, Executioner with plasma sponsons, and to a lesser extent the Eradicator) The power armor won't save them for long, but if positioned right behind a Russ hull they will practically be out of LOS for anyone in front of the tank, AND they obscure the tank from behind in case Drop Pods or Mycetic Spores & Co. decide to drop in from behind. Don't forget they each get a pseudo-power fist too. If you keep two Russes super close together, they might even be able to fix them in tandem!
Elites
Gunnery Sgt. Harker
This guy is weird. The fluff blows smoke about how tough he is, yet he's only T3. In fact,statline-wise, he is a Veteran Sergeant with +1 WS that costs a large blob of points. But then I read the FAQ and the Camo Cloaks entry... They no longer give Stealth, they just give +1 to Cover saves. And Harker gives stealth. And you also get defensive grenades if you get Camo Cloaks with Veterans. If you infiltrate into area terrain, is that a 2+ cover save (3+ from far away)? And you could put Harker in front to get FnP on top of that. Correct me if I'm wrong. That would mean you can plant a Veteran squad with a BS4 heavy weapon (ML or AC comes to mind) and some meltas/plasmas directly into position and give them a huge save. Such a squad kitted out with ML and 3 plasma guns costs a whopping 215 pts, but who knows how effective they might get? The other concern, of course, is to get assaulted. Might be quite effective, if un-fluffy, if used in conjunction with Al-Rahem or (God forbid) Creed (you can form quite an outflanking force this way...).
Psyker Battle Squad
Yes, they're easy to kill. Yes, they can't choose powers from the BRB. Yes, they suck in CC. Yes, probably they aren't that useful. But that means they are easy to ignore. If run in a mech army among a dozen Chimeras, they might just slip through and put down a S9 AP1 (hopefully) pie plate of death, and at a decent range too. IIRC, you can cast psychic powers from the hatch, so no need to disembark. Not reliable due to random AP, but not too expensive. Two problems, though: Chimera explosion and Perils of the Warp, which would absolutely cripple the squad if you roll badly.
Troops
Penal Legion Squad
The concept is nice, and I've proxied regular Guardsmen as these, but they didn't seem to work. They just die too easily and the Scout/Stubborn and Desperadoes rule (which also makes them unreliable) don't seem to be worth the extra points. Their buffs all center upon close combat(steady Ld, shoot and charge or furious charge or rending), which a 10-strong unit without Combined Squad just can't last (or win, due to the shocking lack of # of attacks). What I want to try them for is, again, in conjunction with Al-Rahem, Harker or Creed.
Heavy Support
Ordnance Battery-Medusa
Yeah, so Griffons are the big hit on this codex page since they're cheap and their minimum range isn't as restrictive as the Basilisk's. But what about the Medusa? The FW model looks pretty good, and it may just be the strongest anti-tank weapon in the game if taken with bastion breacher shells. I mean, S10 AP1 AND 2D6 for armor penetration? At 36" range? Even the Weirdboy's Zzap can't reach that. But it's a blast, which always runs the risk of scattering off target... And it almost costs as much as a LRBT while having Chimera armor. However, in a vehicle heavy army I believe it might be very useful support (the enemy just has to stop that Executioner, doesn't he?) that can destroy anything it hits, even one-shotting a LR or Monolith is quite possible.
Comments? Would you use these guys in your armies?
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"Get'em boyz! Dakka dakka dakka! WAAAGH! DA ORKS! WAAAGH!" -Rotgob
Is Kharn a Commissar that kills enemies or are Commissars Kharn wannabe's who don't have the balls to kill enemies? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 04:03:25
Subject: Re:Meditations on rarely-used IG units
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I have used the Psyker Battle Squad in much the manner you suggested--rolling around in a Chimera laying down pie plates of death. It is fun, but the Chimera doesn't usually last very long and once the Psykers are out of their metal box they die pretty quickly. Still, I enjoy using them and they do prove useful for drawing fire, or if left ignored causing havoc on the enemy's flank. I even have a custom Chimera model with protective runes and pieces of parchment modeled onto it to ensure that my opponent knows exactly which Chimera is going to pose a threat to his army.
It should go without saying that I am not a tourney player, and like making lists that are fun while not always points effective. For example I also like running 5 Ogryn and Yarrick in a Chimera, often along side the Psykers so that my opponent really has to decide where to focus fire. Yarrick and Ogryns are stupid fun, but insanely expensive.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 04:32:10
Subject: Re:Meditations on rarely-used IG units
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
Chicago, Il
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The medusa is pretty darn nasty with the new rules for templates. I'd still take the non upgraded medusa as it's larger blast means the chance of hitting more than one vehicle, and scatters are about an inch more forgiving. Str 10 (roll 2 take the highest on pen) with ap 2 is pretty. And the larger template is nice for when it comes to hitting infantry. The medusa and griffin would be much more common a sight if GW released a plastic kit.
My experience with PL has been mixed. I like them, and if they get knife fighter they can be a nasty surprise, but all too often you get one of the other useless ones. They do a good job of taking back field objectives for cheap, you just have to clear the enemy off first... Never count on them to do it for you...
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Sargent! Bring me my brown pants! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 04:54:27
Subject: Meditations on rarely-used IG units
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Douglas Bader
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The book powers are too inconsistent (the disciplines you get only have 1-2 useful powers at most, even by the most generous standards) and the default power is just a couple multilasers like all of your Chimeras already have. I wouldn't ever bother with one except in the smallest games where you can't afford a CCS and transport.
Techpriest Enginseers
Too expensive. Instead of trying to repair your tanks (if they survive long enough) just spend those points on more tanks.
Gunnery Sgt. Harker
Possibly useful. As you noticed the fact that both cover bonuses stack is nice, if expensive, and infiltrate/outflank are useful. If you deduct the cost of the heavy bolter you're getting a good deal on those bonuses, so the only question is whether you're willing to spend more than 150 points on a vet squad.
Psyker Battle Squad
These are rarely used? I thought it was pretty well known that they're powerful (though more for leadership killing than shooting) and the only real drawback is how frequently you encounter pyschic defenses in more competitive environments?
Penal Legion Squad
Too expensive for what you get. Even with assault bonuses they're still 10 guardsmen with no weapon upgrades. It's just insult to injury that you can't assault when you outflank anymore.
Ordnance Battery-Medusa
Decent, though I prefer to keep the large blast and use melta for AV 14, since it's so much better against infantry targets. The extra 12" of range over the demolisher is very nice to have, but on the other hand it's only AV 12 so it tends to die quickly. I wouldn't consider it unless you have AV 12 spam already to help with target saturation.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 06:44:03
Subject: Meditations on rarely-used IG units
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Psykers: Primaris psykers certainly got better in 6th. Up from awful to considerable. Lightning arc (especially if its twin-linked with bring it down), can throw a LOT of dakka at fliers, which has suddenly made it a serious non-vendetta anti-flier weapon, especially for its low, low price.
Being able to take new powers isn't great, but it's not that terrible. Telekinesis has 5 abilities that a primaris psyker can take, and 3 of them are pretty good (the first three), which means you're pretty likely to get at least one useful ability.
The main problem, though, is it's still not a great unit. You wouldn't expect it to be for its cost, but it does cost just enough to seriously compete with other cheap options like Marbo or Hydras. I've actually used this unit a couple of times already, and it seemed solid, but it didn't really wow me, which meant it got phased out.
I might include him again at higher point games when I actually have points to throw around and don't have obvious slots to fill them in.
Tehcpriests. These guys went from dispicably awful, to merely horribly awful. They're expensive. They're not ICs, which makes them fragile (and rather likely to give away first blood unless you can keep them ABSOLUTELY outside of LOS). Most importantly, they don't do anything to stop the tank from being wrecked outright, and meltaguns lost none of their potency against russes.
As Peregrine says, just get more russes, or an ADL and some camo cloaks.
Harker. He can't take grenadiers, which makes him rather worthless in my mind. The one thing he has going for him is that, outside of al'rahem and creed, he is the only way to deliver a credible scoring unit directly into your opponent's deployment zone. I'd probably pair him up with a chimera if I were to run him again.
PBS. They got worse in 6th ed, now that they can't shoot out of chimeras anymore. As this was the only way to keep them on the table before, a fragile unit now just got impossible to keep alive. To add insult to injury, your opponent now has deny the witch, so it doesn't even work 1/6th of the time. And rallying is kinder in this rules edition.
Really, it only ever worked in one of a few specific combinations before. Now it's more fragile and less potent. You probably won't see many of these for good reason.
Penal legionnaires. These guys were one of my top picks for worst unit in the game back in 5th, and they got WORSE in 6th. You're way, way overpaying for a unit of guardsmen that can never be bigger than size 10, and can never take any upgrades. That's it. 10 guys with lasguns, and all the utter uselesness that implies.
They can outflank, but this doesn't have much meaning if they blow away like a fart on the breeze if your opponent so much as stares at them angrily. To top it off, they can no longer even assault the turn they arrive...
They were junk. They are junk. Don't bother.
Medusas. They got a little better with hole-over-target restrictions lifted against vehicles, but they gained hull points, which makes them a bit more fragile. Over all, they've more or less stayed the same.
They weren't all that popular before, what with their BS3, and not ignoring cover (amongst other problems), and they will probably be slightly less so, now that you can glance vehicles to death and so don't quite need to rely on one-shot-one-kill weapons.
Plus, they can't target fliers, which is a giant pain.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/09 06:59:26
Subject: Meditations on rarely-used IG units
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Douglas Bader
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Ailaros wrote:Medusas. They got a little better with hole-over-target restrictions lifted against vehicles, but they gained hull points, which makes them a bit more fragile. Over all, they've more or less stayed the same.
Honestly I think hull points were a net gain, not a loss. In 5th a single glance would almost always shut down a Medusa at least for a turn (and you probably wouldn't live to see a second turn), now it just takes a hull point and you keep shooting. And of course when you're an open-topped AV 12 vehicle you still have a pretty significant chance of just being destroyed (or losing the gun) from one shot, especially from a proper anti-tank weapon. In the end it's still a glass cannon that depends on target saturation to have any hope of surviving to fire more than one shot.
They weren't all that popular before, what with their BS3, and not ignoring cover (amongst other problems), and they will probably be slightly less so, now that you can glance vehicles to death and so don't quite need to rely on one-shot-one-kill weapons.
One thing they did gain is the increased popularity of elite foot armies, especially terminators (thank you power weapon nerf). A 36" demolisher cannon is very nice for killing those targets, especially now that you can focus fire to "ignore" a lot of cover.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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