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I've just been using "easyarmy" - a very useful little tool incidentally - but the results have surprised me. The organisations have altered, which I was kind of expecting, but the main change is the size of the infantry formations.

I only have v2 of the rules. Have infantry become really cheap under v3? I have an infantry force and it seems I can field loads of foot soldiers!

Can you give any examples? You may just be seeing a difference in training and motivation - fearless or reluctant trained troops do cost less than confident veteran troops for the Germans, for example.

As said, you are most likely looking at companies of different motivation and training. Are you using the V3 Forces book on Easy Army? If so, the point costs in those lists are very close to those of previous books. You may have just been previously using Paratroopers or SS (Fearless Veteran) and now made a U.S. rifle company or Heer force (Confident Trained). There can be a substantial difference in points between these (for example; my 2000 pt Heer Panzerkompanie is 270 pts more when SS, with the same setup).

V3 did not change the point costs of things, it mainly clarified the rules and alterations to the airplane, assault, and artillery rules.

Well, as you know, I have an Italian army. Its MW russian front (ASMIR). I used to have to buy a minimum of two fucellari platoons, which could have either five, seven or nine sections of infantry. Now according to easyarmy I have to have 2 companies, each of a coy HQ and 8, 16 or 24 infantry elements. Thats a lot of troops!

So you are using Eastern Front? There shouldn't be any changes between V2 and V3, as BF usually don't extensively alter existing books (Main exception was the BAR in EW).

Indeed, eastern front. There seem to have been a lot of organisational changes since "Ostfront". the 45mm brixia mortars have been divided up and added to each company, and companies are now being treated as "platoons". I therefore could have a "platoon" of 28 infantry stands, which seems a bit excessive to me. Good break point, but easily checked by defensive fire.

I think I see the problem now. Ostfront is the V1 MW Eastern Front book, and Eastern Front is the V2 MW Eastern Front book. There has not been a V3 MW Eastern Front book yet.

Are you referring to Italian Platoons being Companies, like in North Africa? There is a list in North Africa that uses the same organization, the Battaglione Fucilieri (Sicily). They have companies of 28 bases (with brixias). Huge "platoons" are the norm for Italians in MW, though the ones using the AS42 organization are smaller (16 bases). The even larger platoons without the support weapons represent the inability to equip them with better equipment.

Yes I am referring to italian platoons being companies. 28 base platoons? Not so happy with that. In the first place, I'm going to have to buy a lot more infantry! In the second, I'm going to be stumped by defensive fire

The platoons being companies in Flames of War is a reflection of the organization of the Italian army during the war, first with the mixing of regular troops and support weapons in the AS42 companies, then with the larger numbers of men in the later period when they were nearing defeat.

Really, you have to think of your platoons as companies. To have a company with the same or similar number of men as a platoon would not make sense, seeing as a company is composed of around 5 platoons. Though it is definitely annoying for the game cost wise (my required HMG and Anti-tank gun teams were ridiculously expensive), it is the way BF chose to represent the Italian Army, and gameplay wise, makes the Italians a very interesting army to play.

Vanders wrote:
Yes I am referring to italian platoons being companies. 28 base platoons? Not so happy with that. In the first place, I'm going to have to buy a lot more infantry! In the second, I'm going to be stumped by defensive fire

You know you don't have to max out the companies right? You can just have 8 or 16 teams if you want.

Yes I know, but given the other forces available, to get a decent 1750 point army its not easy to have just one platoon companies.

Vanders wrote:
Yes I know, but given the other forces available, to get a decent 1750 point army its not easy to have just one platoon companies.

Not sure what you mean here; are you talking about the stand-count in a 1750 list for the viability of 1-platoon companies in a AMIR list?

I run Alpini on the Eastern Front but the Fucilieri can be decent as well, even when compared to other lists of the MW era.

A suggested list that has the firepower could be something like this;

HQ
Battaglione Fucilieri HQ - 1x CinC Rifle, 1x 2inC Rifle (20 pts)
- 2x Solothurn AT Rifle (20 pts)

Combat
Fucileri Company - 1x Command Rifle/MG, 16x Rifle/MG (200 pts)
- 3x Brixia 45mm Mortar (40 pts)
- Arm all Rifle/MG with Passaglia Bombs (16x teams) (50 pts)

Fucileri Company - 1x Command Rifle/MG, 16x Rifle/MG (200 pts)
- 3x Brixia 45mm Mortar (40 pts)
- Arm all Rifle/MG with Passaglia Bombs (16x teams) (50 pts)

Fucilieri Machine-gun Platoon - 1x Command Rifle, 4x Mod 37 HMG (90 pts)

Fucilieri Machine-gun Platoon - 1x Command Rifle, 4x Mod 37 HMG (90 pts)

Weapons
Fucilerri Mortar Platoon - 1x Command Rifle, 3x 81/14 Mortar (60 pts)
- 1x Observer Rifle (15 pts)

Fucileri Anti-tank Platoon - 1x Command Rifle, 4x 47/32 (80 pts)

Support
Anti-tank Platoon (75/39) - 1x Command Rifle, 6x 75/39 (7.5cm PaK 97/38) (265 pts)

Cannon Battery - 1x Command Rifle, 1x Staff, 4x 75/27 gun (165 pts)
- 1x Observer Rifle (15 pts)

Howitzer Battery - 1x Command Rifle, 1x Staff, 4x 100/17 gun (195 pts)
- 1x Observer Rifle (15 pts)

Light Anti-Aircraft Platoon - 1x Command Rifle, 2x 20/65 autocannon on a 3-ton Truck (60 pts)

Air Support - Sporadic Ju.87 D (100 pts)


1750 Points, 10 Platoons

Your combat companies are 20 stands, not including if you do weapon-attachments for your HMG's or HQ attachments for the AT rifles. Your infantry companies are all Rifle/MG which increases their firepower when defending. Mortars are your smoke launchers and you should have enough guns to deal with Soviet tank hordes, especially those of Conscript level. There's redundancy with the 75/27's as they can use smoke bombardments as well but they're good for AT when direct firing.Your Skoda 100's will be used for pinning. The AA protects your artillery and ATG's. Air support goes after armor or helps pins/dig out stubborn dug-in ATG's or infantry.

It's kind of a large foot-print and heavy on guns but not as large as Soviet Strelks ( i play against a player who uses large formations of Russian infantry, kept cheap by using only Rifle infantry and he has a very large footprint lol!).

Since you're foot-slogging Italians, you'll be defending the majority of the time, so you basically just dig-in and hope you roll decent on the 8MB chart. You can ambush with your ATG's or sit them back with your infantry to be used as point-defense against armor assaults in defensive fire.

Additionally, since your compulsory companies include 2 infantry and 1 HMG unit, you'll have to beef up the infantry companies, so the base 17-stand count company is a compromise, especially when they are Rifle/MG. You'll need the extra stand-count to compensate for the potential low skill-level (Reluctant/Trained 1-3) and absorb more casualties before making a morale test, which is crucial to keep you in the fight.

Italians are pretty much like this across the board; Romanians are similar with their Peasant Army chart, so you never know what you'll get with them. They're very different when compared to other armies of the era, so it will be a challenge to make them work....as Battalions, they're supposed to be big when compared to the company formations of other armies.

I hope this helps....

Thanks for the thoughts! Good to hear from the Alpini!!

Its pretty much what I was thinking for a 1750 point army, although I'd go with a third company of fucellari and drop them to just rifle groups, relying on the brixia mortars to sort out enemy infantry. The passaglia bombs, of course, are essential!
I'd be inclined to take two 81mm mortar batteries and only one HMG platoon instead of one mortar and two HMG platoons. The 81/14 mortar is really useful - cheap on points, good long range, smoke capable and not bad against enemy infantry either.
I'd also take a gustatori pioneer platoon instead of the 100/17 howitzers. Dont get me wrong, they are good guns - their bombardments are even capable against enemy armor, but they can't fire smoke, and are large, immobile, and generally too vulnerable to counter fire. Gustatori though are really good in tank assaults. They are elite infantry, so more likely to go in, and the Anti tank of 4 with no chance of blowing themselves up is really potent!
I wouldnt personally worry about AA protection. Truck mounted AA guns are vulnerable, and the Italians dont really have many targets that are worthwhile attacking with aircraft anyway, except possibly the artillery. I would consider putting some of the despised L6/40 tankettes in though. Not because they are very effective (they're not) but because most FOW players (most WWII players period actually) are absolutely tank-mad and will go to inordinate lengths to try and destroy them, for no other reason that they can. While the enemy is gloating over the destruction of 30 point tanks with rubbish guns and armor so thin that sunlight can go through it, they wont be shooting at the demolishers closing in on their flanks!

So I put forward this:
HQ
Battaglione Fucilieri HQ - 1x CinC Rifle, 1x 2inC Rifle (20 pts)

Combat
Fucileri Company - 1x Command Rifle, 16x Rifle (180 pts)
- 3x Brixia 45mm Mortar (40 pts)
- Arm all Rifle/MG with Passaglia Bombs (16x teams) (50 pts)

Fucileri Company - 1x Command Rifle, 16x Rifle (180 pts)
- 3x Brixia 45mm Mortar (40 pts)
- Arm all Rifle/MG with Passaglia Bombs (16x teams) (50 pts)

Fucileri Company - 1x Command Rifle, 16x Rifle (180 pts)
- 3x Brixia 45mm Mortar (40 pts)
- Arm all Rifle/MG with Passaglia Bombs (16x teams) (50 pts)

Fucilieri Machine-gun Platoon - 1x Command Rifle, 4x Mod 37 HMG (90 pts)

Weapons
Fucilerri Mortar Platoon - 1x Command Rifle, 3x 81/14 Mortar (60 pts)
- 1x Observer Rifle (15 pts)

Fucilerri Mortar Platoon - 1x Command Rifle, 3x 81/14 Mortar (60 pts)
- 1x Observer Rifle (15 pts)

Fucileri Anti-tank Platoon - 1x Command Rifle, 4x 47/32 (80 pts)

Support
Cannon Battery - 1x Command Rifle, 1x Staff, 4x 75/27 gun (165 pts)
- 1x Observer Rifle (15 pts)

Light tank platoon - 4 x L6/40 (120 pts)

Demolisher platoon - 1x Command pioneer Rifle/MG, 6x pioneer Rifle/MG (180 pts)

Air Support - Sporadic Ju.87 D (100 pts)


1750 Points, 10 Platoons


One last point. The army lists say stukas, but I like to use Mc200 instead. They were the only ground support true Italian aircraft used, and the stats are the same as the stuka anyway. Just a little foible there.

Thanks for the thoughts. Very useful.

I would caution you on taking the 120 pt. L6/40 unit. I think you have vastly overestimated the reaction people have to tanks (especially if those tanks are light tanks). It is fairly common for players to panic when faced with Tigers or IS-2s and do all they can to destroy them, but it is unlikely that a player will care to much about tanks they know can't do all that much against even their infantry.

The reliance on the fear factor of tanks (even Tigers, the most common tanked used in this role) as an important strategy within a force can prove fatal. This use of Tigers as a fear factor has helped me win 2 games against German tank companies because the player was expecting me to put a lot of effort into destroying the Tiger(s) (one player actually told me after the game that he was relying on the fear factor of the Tiger to distract my heavy AT guns [Lancias]). When I ignored their Tigers, I basically eliminated any effect they had on the game (one sat back taking pit shots at my infantry from afar, while the other 2 stayed 8 in. away from my infantry line, too afraid I would bail them in assault to do more than fire their MGs). In both cases, I destroyed more than half of the rest of their force, and the Tiger(s) retreated.

Though in your case the L6/40 are not going to play as important or as points-heavy a role in your force, they can be even more easily denied the ability to accomplish anything than the points-heavy tanks. While the Tiger poses a threat to other tanks (making them priority targets for tank companies) and is hard to kill, your L6/40s don't pose a threat to tanks, and can be easily destroyed if they do start making trouble. So, against most opponents, the L6/40s are likely to be a sink of 120 pts. that doesn’t accomplish anything in the game.

On the subject of artillery, I will say that my 100/17 guns have proved invaluable on more than one occasion. My artillery (I use a 100/17 battery and a 75/27 battery in all games) is probably the 2nd most valuable component of my army (after my AS42 Bersaglieri Companies). They suppress and destroy infantry when advancing (and the 100/17s have even destroyed a few tightly packed tanks that way), and cover my objectives from any tanks that get through my companies. The second function has won games for me, one example being were my front line had collapsed on a defensive mission where I had only half of my force. They held onto the objective against some Stugs until an advancing infantry Company could move up and contest the objective (they were destroyed the turn the infantry company was in range). So for me, artillery has not only proved good to slow and damage the enemy while they advance, but also as objective defenders in the anti-tank role.

(Sorry for the wall of text, but I had a lot to say on the subject of "fear-factor" units from my experience )

Interesting counter; going for 3 combat rifle companies to keep them cheaper works too.

My suggested list was gun-heavy, but that's mainly due to what I face sometimes with my group....masses of Soviet steel.

I still like the AA as in V3, air support is pretty viable and can pick off your artillery if it's isolated.

I use the Guastatori in my NA Bersaglierir list a good bit and they've never let me down. A good choice for sure. I've also thought of running some L6/40's for use as a counter-reserve unit to back up my infantry, though the Semovente 47/32's may be viable as well for the punch they can deliver against enemy infantry and gun-teams.

Agree with the Macchi C.200's; keeping the look pure Italian is definitley in the realm of "rule of cool".

My thinking with the other support options is using one group of mortars for smoke unless you do not plan for more artillery, then having two groups is a must. It keeps things a bit efficient for other stuff you may need, like ATG's and light tanks, etc. The HMG's can go either way; I like to attach them out sometimes, but I can see sometimes where I wouldn't use them at all if I feel my combat companies have the firepower by themselves. But you can't go wrong with at least one platoon of them.

General Seric and I are probably the regular Italian players here on the forums; we both play Bersags in NA in EW and MW, so we're willing to assist those who are getting into them. I think a few others have dropped by experimenting with them, but haven't heard much from them. However, maybe an AAR to see how this list fares in battle? I'd be interested to see how it does.

I take the point re the tank terror stuff, but I still like using the L6/40's. Like ThirdUltra, I envisage them more as a reserve unit to scurry around behind the infantry liine and supporting them, or threatening lightning counterattacks against isolated infantry units. I suppose there might be some mileage in dropping them in favor of another HMG platoon, and of dropping some or all of the infantry companies down to just the one platoon, and buying an alpini company with the points. That gives 11 platoons, which means an enemy will have to destroy 6 to get a company morale roll.

I do have one concern. Three rifle companies means more infantry antitank teams, but I do worry I may be crowding the typical board too much. Enemy artillery is going to struggle to miss!

As far as an AAR I would love to, but I don't have all the models for a 1750 point list. I've just finished the 75/27 battery and I'm working on the planes. I need more infantry - at least 25 bases of the stuff. That might have to wait until next payday!

Vanders wrote:
Indeed, eastern front. There seem to have been a lot of organisational changes since "Ostfront". the 45mm brixia mortars have been divided up and added to each company, and companies are now being treated as "platoons". I therefore could have a "platoon" of 28 infantry stands, which seems a bit excessive to me. Good break point, but easily checked by defensive fire.

There is your issue. Ostfront was the 1st edition Eastern Front book, replaced with Eastern Front in 2nd edition. What you are seeing is the difference between the lists in those two books. 3rd edition has not seen a new MW Eastern front book release yet. So yes there are some changes between Ostfront and Eastern front, but they have nothing to do with 3rd edition.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vanders wrote:
I do have one concern. Three rifle companies means more infantry antitank teams, but I do worry I may be crowding the typical board too much. Enemy artillery is going to struggle to miss!

As far as an AAR I would love to, but I don't have all the models for a 1750 point list. I've just finished the 75/27 battery and I'm working on the planes. I need more infantry - at least 25 bases of the stuff. That might have to wait until next payday!

Armies full of cheap infantry will always crowd the board. No way to avoid it and you have enough stands to soak plenty of artillery file so no worries at all.

Generally for Italians I recommend guns, guns and more guns. As many artillery and AT pieces as they can take is the best option that the Italians have since their armor is severely lacking on the Eastern front. L6s and Semovente 47s just don't stack up against the armor they will have to deal with on the Eastern front, because even though you view your armor as a flanking infantry support force, your opponent is definitely going to engage them with T-34s or worse. Dug in infantry and guns with overlapping arcs of fire and a staged objective defense turn the Italians into an actual threat on the Eastern front, that they otherwise aren't.

Skriker

Vanders wrote:
I take the point re the tank terror stuff, but I still like using the L6/40's. Like ThirdUltra, I envisage them more as a reserve unit to scurry around behind the infantry liine and supporting them, or threatening lightning counterattacks against isolated infantry units

I prefer running pure infantry lists but some kind of light armour is invaluable. One of the biggest threats to non dug in infantry is light armour which can be difficult to deal with by using AT guns due to LOS issues. Having something mobile that can counter them will make your life easier. You also need something that can react, you infantry is much too slow and vulnerable to rely on.

Italian infantry is a tough one as they are frankly gak. Reluctant trained 50% of the time and poor support options doesn't make for a strong force. As they usually defned though I would take as many support platoons as you can get, both artillery and both AT platoons are a must IMO. 2 mortar platoons and regimental guns wouldn't go amiss either.