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Having a debate on the Hive about this and it appears that everyone disagrees with me, so I figured I should get a sanity check.

1) Is "Start of Fight subphase" and "Begining of Fight Subphase" the same thing?
2) Do Lash Whips and Whip Coils have an effect that has to be resolved in some order or do they take effect at the start of the Fight Subphase?
3) Does MSS happen at the same time as lash whips/chalanges or just challanges?

OK lets put it in a real world context:

Unit of warriors with a Prime (all with Lash Whips and Bone Swords) charges a unit of wraiths with Coil Whips and a Lord with MSS.

How does it get resolved?

1) Lash whips and Coil whips get resolved at the same time before all other effects even though they are two diffrent sets of rules on two diffrent units. Then the Tyranid player can then choose to MSS or challange.

2) Tyranid player gets to decide to resolve the Lash Whips or Coil Whips. Once those are resolved the Tyrnid player can then choose to resolve the MSS or challange.

3) Tyranid player gets to choose the order that Lash Whips, Coil Whips, MSS and challanges get to be resolved.

I think this situation helps to highlight how complex the Fight Subphase can be and should give us a good basis for discussion. I am not giving my answer because I don't want to influence tha answers. I honestly think it is pretty straight forward, but appernetly I no one else thinks so.

1. I don't see why they wouldn't be.

2. They take effect at the start of the fight sub-phase.

3. MSS happens at the start of the fight subphase.

To resolve, whoever's turn it is decides the order everything takes effect in. So if it was the nids turn they could decide that MSS and lash whips happens before challenging. On the necron turn, you decide Challenge happens before MSS but after whip coils.

 Kevin949 wrote:
1. I don't see why they wouldn't be.

2. They take effect at the start of the fight sub-phase.

3. MSS happens at the start of the fight subphase.

To resolve, whoever's turn it is decides the order everything takes effect in. So if it was the nids turn they could decide that MSS and lash whips happens before challenging. On the necron turn, you decide Challenge happens before MSS but after whip coils.

And by that logic (if I am the Tyranid player) if I have my prime in BtB with a wraith and the lord in BtB with a warrior I can do the following.

I can resolve the lash whips, resolve the MSS, issue a challange and then resolve the Coil Whips.

Coil whips and lash whips are on 2 diffrent units and have (technically) 2 sets of special rules they can be resolved at diffrent orders.

 Gloomfang wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
1. I don't see why they wouldn't be.

2. They take effect at the start of the fight sub-phase.

3. MSS happens at the start of the fight subphase.

To resolve, whoever's turn it is decides the order everything takes effect in. So if it was the nids turn they could decide that MSS and lash whips happens before challenging. On the necron turn, you decide Challenge happens before MSS but after whip coils.

And by that logic (if I am the Tyranid player) if I have my prime in BtB with a wraith and the lord in BtB with a warrior I can do the following.

I can resolve the lash whips, resolve the MSS, issue a challange and then resolve the Coil Whips.

Coil whips and lash whips are on 2 diffrent units and have (technically) 2 sets of special rules they can be resolved at diffrent orders.

That's correct, to the best of my knowledge anyway.

And in case you were wondering, the reason you aren't doing a roll off is because none of that stuff is actually conflicting with one another.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
1. I don't see why they wouldn't be.

2. They take effect at the start of the fight sub-phase.

3. MSS happens at the start of the fight subphase.

To resolve, whoever's turn it is decides the order everything takes effect in. So if it was the nids turn they could decide that MSS and lash whips happens before challenging. On the necron turn, you decide Challenge happens before MSS but after whip coils.

And by that logic (if I am the Tyranid player) if I have my prime in BtB with a wraith and the lord in BtB with a warrior I can do the following.

I can resolve the lash whips, resolve the MSS, issue a challange and then resolve the Coil Whips.

Coil whips and lash whips are on 2 diffrent units and have (technically) 2 sets of special rules they can be resolved at diffrent orders.

That's correct, to the best of my knowledge anyway.

And in case you were wondering, the reason you aren't doing a roll off is because none of that stuff is actually conflicting with one another.

The issue here is the timing of the Lash Whips vs the Challenge. Now say that a Necron Lord is in btb with a Lash whip after a Necron Charge move. Now say the Necron challenges the Tyranid player who accepts and models swap to brb a Prime(who doesnt have a lash whip) and no longer in btb with the Lash Whip. Is the Lord's INI still 1 because he started the fight subphase in BTB with the Lash whip, or does the challenge saying hes only in BTB with the Prime and therefore his normal INI ?

Fragile wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
1. I don't see why they wouldn't be.

2. They take effect at the start of the fight sub-phase.

3. MSS happens at the start of the fight subphase.

To resolve, whoever's turn it is decides the order everything takes effect in. So if it was the nids turn they could decide that MSS and lash whips happens before challenging. On the necron turn, you decide Challenge happens before MSS but after whip coils.

And by that logic (if I am the Tyranid player) if I have my prime in BtB with a wraith and the lord in BtB with a warrior I can do the following.

I can resolve the lash whips, resolve the MSS, issue a challange and then resolve the Coil Whips.

Coil whips and lash whips are on 2 diffrent units and have (technically) 2 sets of special rules they can be resolved at diffrent orders.

That's correct, to the best of my knowledge anyway.

And in case you were wondering, the reason you aren't doing a roll off is because none of that stuff is actually conflicting with one another.

The issue here is the timing of the Lash Whips vs the Challenge. Now say that a Necron Lord is in btb with a Lash whip after a Necron Charge move. Now say the Necron challenges the Tyranid player who accepts and models swap to brb a Prime(who doesnt have a lash whip) and no longer in btb with the Lash Whip. Is the Lord's INI still 1 because he started the fight subphase in BTB with the Lash whip, or does the challenge saying hes only in BTB with the Prime and therefore his normal INI ?

He would fight at his regular initiative providing the challenge is accepted and the necron player chose to apply lash whips after challenge issuing.


He's still Initiative 1 until the end of the assault phase, per the FAQ. It's no different than if he was affected by the whips and then the whip wielder was killed prior to his turn, he'd still be Init 1. - Disregard this, leaving for continuity...

Because that answer contradicts your first answer....

So your taking the approach that the Lash whips apply simultaneously to the Challenge being issued/accepted ?

Core and Fragile quick question:
What resolves first lash whips or whip coils? Because they can't both be resolved at the same time (per RAW).

There is nothing to 'resolve', it is a simple if/then type defintion.

When do you 'resolve' if a gaunt gets TS from a Tervigon?

coredump wrote:

When do you 'resolve' if a gaunt gets TS from a Tervigon?

That is an easy one.

Q: At what point does my model need to be in range of a Tervigon to gain the bonuses of Brood Progenitor special rule? (p52)
A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when the model is charged or when it makes its close combat attacks.

If a I6 model kills the tervigon before the guants strike then no TS for the gaunts.
If the enough gaunts die so that the Tervigon is not within 6" of them at the I3 initative round then they don't get it.
If after the gaunts make their pile in move the brood is further than 6" from the Tervigon they get no TS.

Lots of things need to be resolved. Same as Lash Whips. Like checking to see if an enemy model is in BtB and if it is a valid target for lashwhip.

EDIT: And to be really specific you check to see if a member of the Brood is within 6" when you roll to hit.

coredump wrote:Because that answer contradicts your first answer....

Fragile wrote:So your taking the approach that the Lash whips apply simultaneously to the Challenge being issued/accepted ?

Sorry, I misunderstood his example. Assuming it's the necron players turn (which it seems to be in his example) he would decide if he wanted to apply the challenge or the lash whips first. Obviously the necron player will decide to issue the challenge first.

I initially thought his example was if it was the tyranid players turn. I'll admit, I glossed over key parts of his post (it was close to my leaving for the day from work) and filled int he blanks in my head, incorrectly.

I've edited my above post.

You need to check things like who is in BtB and if targets are valid every time you use a special rule, even if you intuitivly know the answer (Like the fact that lash whips don't effect hovering flyers even if you are in BtB). What people are missing is that everything in the game is now about timing and phases. Talk about activating and not activating and everything else misses that point. So with my prime with warriors vs. Lord and Wraiths example lets break it down.

Things that need to happen in the Fight Subphase:

Lash Whips have to reduce models in BtB to I1.
Whip Coils have to reduce models in BtB to I1.
MSS has to select a target and see if the target fails its test.
Challanges can be issued or denied.
Pile in moves have to be made.
Blows have to be struck.
Blows that hit need to see if they wound.
Wounds need to be saved.
Casualities need to be removed.
Combat resolution needs to be checked.

OK now what comes first? The things that say they happen in the start or begining of the Fight Subphase. We check the rules and there are four seprate things that all say they happen:
Lash Whips have to reduce models in BtB to I1.
Whip Coils have to reduce models in BtB to I1.
MSS has to select a target and see if the target fails its test.
Challanges can be issued or denied.

OK. So now we need to have all those things be resolved before we can move on to the things that are not at the start of the Fight Subphase. Well what ones get done first. We look to see if any of them have interupting or lagging language (a good example of laging language is the BL's Gaze where it specifies that it must happen after challanges are made) and none of them do.

Ok, so we have 4 things that need to be resolved that all happen at the same time. The rules on pg 9 say when this happens the player who's turn it is gets to decide what order to resolve them in.

To have the lash whips and whip coils work the way Coredump says it works there needs to be some sort of interupting language or something else in the rules that are specific. His argument is that "As soon as the Fight Subphase starts" that lash whips take effect, but the rule doesn't say that. The only real ambiguity is if Start and Beginning mean the same thing in 40K as the rest of the English language (where they a defined as the same thing).

Now there is the full arguement with the rules that back them up. Please tell me where I am wrong and cite BRB pages if you have a rule that counters on that I have presented.

Again.... the rule talks about having to *DO* something at the same time as a player having to *DO* something else at the same time.

When in base with a Lash Whip, there is nothing to *DO*. There is nothing to "resolve", it is simply the definition.

If I shoot at your models in area terrain, do you have to 'do' something to get a cover save? Do you have to 'resolve' something? No, it is a simple conditional definition.
If you are in AT, you get a cover save.
If you are in base, you have I1.

Lash whips *DO NOT* "reduce models to I1", that is not how the rule works. If the model is in base, it has an init of 1. Simple as that.

coredump wrote:
Again.... the rule talks about having to *DO* something at the same time as a player having to *DO* something else at the same time.
When in base with a Lash Whip, there is nothing to *DO*. There is nothing to "resolve", it is simply the definition.
<snip>Lash whips *DO NOT* "reduce models to I1", that is not how the rule works. If the model is in base, it has an init of 1. Simple as that.

Actully yes they do reduce a model to I1. Lash whip is a set value modifier.

Q: If a model with lash whips is attacking a model with an Initiativeboosting rule/piece of wargear (e.g. Furious Charge, an Eldar Banshee
Mask etc.), which order are the Initiatives modified? (p83)
A: As a ‘set value modifier’ the lash whip effect is applied after all other modifiers. If the model is affected by another set value modifier, roll off to see which is applied first at the start of each Fight sub-phase.

The *DO* is to apply a "Set value modifier". So lets say that the lash whip unit is assaulted by Banshee's with masks so they have a Set value modifier of I10. Well we know from the FAQs that we now have two set vaule modifiers and that we need to roll off.

So lets go down the rabbit hole. Lets say your playing a duals match against Eldar and Necrons. Same example with the warriors vs wraiths. The next turn a group of banshee's charge. Now there is something "to do". Does that suddenly make it so that the controlling player gets to choose when to resolve lash whips in that case?

coredump wrote:
Again.... the rule talks about having to *DO* something at the same time as a player having to *DO* something else at the same time.

When in base with a Lash Whip, there is nothing to *DO*. There is nothing to "resolve", it is simply the definition.

If I shoot at your models in area terrain, do you have to 'do' something to get a cover save? Do you have to 'resolve' something? No, it is a simple conditional definition.
If you are in AT, you get a cover save.
If you are in base, you have I1.

Lash whips *DO NOT* "reduce models to I1", that is not how the rule works. If the model is in base, it has an init of 1. Simple as that.

Not quite correct, you do have to determine if someone is in BTB. Which is the same thing that MSS does.

coredump wrote:
Lash whips *DO NOT* "reduce models to I1", that is not how the rule works. If the model is in base, it has an init of 1. Simple as that.

You seem to have missed the FAQ that triggers this whole discussion. Tyranid FAQ, 6th ed., v1.1, page 2:

Page 83 – Close Combat Weapon, Lash Whips.
Change the second paragraph to read “Any enemy model that
is in base contact with a Tyranid with one or more lash whips at
the beginning of the Fight sub-phase counts their Initiative
value as 1 until the end of the Assault phase, regardless of their
actual Initiative.”

This changes Lash Whips from a (problematic!) continuous effect into an effect that's triggered at the start of the Fight sub-phase and lasts until the end of the Assault phase.