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Reading over the Badab War it seems completely impossible for Lugft Huron to have won.

Especially once the Imperium sent in a 2nd wave of fresh Space Marine chapters.

Are there any routes at all that you believe the Tyrant of Badab could have taken to win the war?

Or at the very least achieve an armistice?

He was one man against the might of the Imperium. Even with hundreds of chapters to his cause all he could have ever hoped to achieve was a bigger slaughter before his inevitable loss.

The Imperium doesn't look kindly on traitors, they'd never accept peace. Huron knew what he was doing when he claimed his own portion of the empire, and he would've known exactly how it would turn out.

Kinda just goes to show the hubris of the man.

No, it wasn't an automatic defeat. Lots of areas fight and win in succeeding from the Imperium as long as they're lower priority or something more important happens. The problem with Huron is he escalated the conflict too fast and drew too much attention to himself. He also should have waited for something bigger to happen in the Imperium before making a move at succession (a new Waaagh!, Tyranid fleet, Black Crusade, whatever).

Yeah it's entirely possible the imperium would have shelved the badab conflict in the event of a black crusade or a hive fleet invasion. The imperium can crush almost anything with enough time and enough opportunity to devote resources to it, but they're almost constantly overextended and pressed hard on every front.

Huron was still in the process of building his forces and fortifying his worlds when the conflict suddenly escalated at a time when there wasn't anything better for the aggressor chapters to be doing. Given more time and more troops he might have been able to string the meat grinder out long enough for loyalist forces to be redeployed - going after seccessionists is pretty high in the imperium's priority list, but it's trumped by direct invasion of important systems.

If Abaddon had launched the 13th black crusade earlier, Huron might still be in his palace. That's not to say that secceeding without external support wasn't a really bad idea, or that there was ever a great likelyhood of it working, but with the right circumstances it could have happened.

 Ronin wrote:
Kinda just goes to show the hubris of the man.

Maybe it just shows the hubris of a man corrupted by chaos. Servants of chaos generally don't care who dies or how many as long as there is some dying going on.

Well, the Badab War was not a Chaos conflict. Huron didn't make a pact with the Gods of Chaos until after the war was already over, and even that is more of a mutual benefit agreement then any real kind of worshipping. Astral Claws and their allies in the Badab War never had anything to do with Chaos, and Red Corsairs only give it lip service.

Maybe if he made a pact with the chaos gods before the war broke out, he could have had all sorts of deus ex machina helping him out. But then the Carcharodons would show up so, who knows.
Dang, if I was still working 5 days a week, the number of Carcharodon armies in the world would be one higher than it is right now.

Despite it's gargantuan size the Imperium has only a limited amount of ressources, especialy when it comes to warships, transport ships and more advanced equipment.
After all, being able to raise soldiers till kingdome come is probably the easiest part in an interstellar war.
Wasting too much men and material ( or simply time ) on a single conflict can mean that other important warzones
lack the necessary reinforcements to prevail. So while the Badab War was probably of a pretty high priority, too many crushing defeats could have resulted in a war that was no
longer sustainable.
So no, i don't think that the Badab War was a guaranteed loss, merely a quite likely one.

 Harriticus wrote:
Well, the Badab War was not a Chaos conflict. Huron didn't make a pact with the Gods of Chaos until after the war was already over, and even that is more of a mutual benefit agreement then any real kind of worshipping. Astral Claws and their allies in the Badab War never had anything to do with Chaos, and Red Corsairs only give it lip service.

And that's what I like about the Badab War. It wasnt Imperium vs. Chaos. It was Imperium vs. Secessionists, with the Chaos factor coming in after all was said and done. When I was talking about his hubris earlier, I was referring to the fact that he was a Chapter Master of an Astartes Chapter. He, of all individuals in the Imperium, should know of the resources and might the Imperium has at its disposal, but still went with his rebellion.

Huron was arrogant. Really the Badab War started due to an exacerbation to an extreme of the normal independent streak all Space Marine Chapters have. Where it went wrong was when Huron was denied the resources he wanted for a crusade into the Maelstrom, he decided he wasn't going to put up with that as he knew better and started to take the resources regardless. This in turn had knock on effects since his actions denied resources to other worlds that needed to make their tithes to support the rest of the Imperium. When called to account, Huron refused to answer to anyone and eventually things escalated to opening fire and then warfare.

Ultimately it could even be seen as a repeat of one of the original issues of the Heresy: The struggle for civilian control of the Imperium and humanity, fought between normal human administrators against Space Marines deciding they knew better and refusing to take orders let alone be denied their wishes.

The Chaos Space Marines in the Eye of Terror can be seen as an example of what might have happened if Huron had won: a Space Marine warlord ruling over a world or collection of worlds as a personal fiefdom, with other Space Marines forming a privileged military overlord class over the normal humans who are exploited as labor or cannon fodder.

He could have swayed more Chapters to his cause and still would have lost. An Astartes Chapter Master should not place himself above those that act for Him on Earth regardless of how right he might be.

Iracundus wrote:
Huron was arrogant. Really the Badab War started due to an exacerbation to an extreme of the normal independent streak all Space Marine Chapters have. Where it went wrong was when Huron was denied the resources he wanted for a crusade into the Maelstrom, he decided he wasn't going to put up with that as he knew better and started to take the resources regardless. This in turn had knock on effects since his actions denied resources to other worlds that needed to make their tithes to support the rest of the Imperium. When called to account, Huron refused to answer to anyone and eventually things escalated to opening fire and then warfare.

Ultimately it could even be seen as a repeat of one of the original issues of the Heresy: The struggle for civilian control of the Imperium and humanity, fought between normal human administrators against Space Marines deciding they knew better and refusing to take orders let alone be denied their wishes.

The Chaos Space Marines in the Eye of Terror can be seen as an example of what might have happened if Huron had won: a Space Marine warlord ruling over a world or collection of worlds as a personal fiefdom, with other Space Marines forming a privileged military overlord class over the normal humans who are exploited as labor or cannon fodder.

Don't forget in the original incident that started the Badab War, Huron was in the right and the Imperial tax ships were wrong. It was after that, that things really really went south.

barnowl wrote:

Don't forget in the original incident that started the Badab War, Huron was in the right and the Imperial tax ships were wrong. It was after that, that things really really went south.

Exactly, that's what I love about the Badab War.

There isn't a clear side that is in the moral right. (At least not at the start; once Huron's Corpse Takers come into play things start getting a bit dark.)

In GW fluff it is nigh impossible for anyone besides the forces of the Imperium to win a lasting victory.

There is much more going on than Lufgt Huron and his "rebellion". Lufgt defied the Imperium and that simply could not be allowed to stand and he sentenced his chapter to death. While I sympathize with Lufgt in some ways, I understand why so many Chapters felt the hammer needed to be dropped on them. It is trully a tragic story of hubris, misplaced honor and loyalty... all that good stuff.

Despite the involvement of many prestigious Chapters, I believe his fate was sealed once the Minotaurs, Carcharodons and perhaps the Star Phantoms got involved. One only needs to read their respective Chapter bios to undertand what I mean.

The real "story" in the war IMHO is the relationship between those chapters and the Lords of Terra. This is especially true with the Minotaurs. Not-to-mention the speculation about the origin of that Chapter as well. I found those stories very illuminating personally.

 Ronin wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Well, the Badab War was not a Chaos conflict. Huron didn't make a pact with the Gods of Chaos until after the war was already over, and even that is more of a mutual benefit agreement then any real kind of worshipping. Astral Claws and their allies in the Badab War never had anything to do with Chaos, and Red Corsairs only give it lip service.

And that's what I like about the Badab War. It wasnt Imperium vs. Chaos. It was Imperium vs. Secessionists, with the Chaos factor coming in after all was said and done. When I was talking about his hubris earlier, I was referring to the fact that he was a Chapter Master of an Astartes Chapter. He, of all individuals in the Imperium, should know of the resources and might the Imperium has at its disposal, but still went with his rebellion.

It was a gambit I think, he underestimated the Imperial response for a number of reasons (probably most glaringly, that they would respect Astartes autonomy more then some normal secessionist world). Similar to Hitler invading Czechoslovakia but knowing he was doomed if there was a global intervention, and Saddam gambling the same thing when he went into Kuwait. Just in this case, Huron was a Saddam....

If Huron had played his cards right, he might've been able to hold out on Badab. The Imperium's resources were exceedingly strained, and odds were they wouldn't be able to handle a sustained war. Think about the Damocles Crusade. Though the Imperium was much stronger than the Tau Empire, it didn't have the resources to keep up the war effort.

 Marsden wrote:
Reading over the Badab War it seems completely impossible for Lugft Huron to have won.

Especially once the Imperium sent in a 2nd wave of fresh Space Marine chapters.

Are there any routes at all that you believe the Tyrant of Badab could have taken to win the war?

Or at the very least achieve an armistice?

In the long run? Realistically? There's no way he could have won. Truthfully, the entire story was far overindulgent on the powers and importance of Space Marines, but even that notwithstanding, had he become any more threatening, the smallest fraction of the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy bringing its full might to bear would have crushed him utterly.


hence, as noted in another thread, why 40k is really Space Fantasy, not Science Fiction. The High Lords of Terra could have tossed 500,000 Regiments of Imperial Guard and it'd amount to a few hours worth of daily recruitment for the Munitorum, and seen Huron's Space Marines outnumbered 2,500,000 to 1 and crushed in hours.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marsden wrote:
Reading over the Badab War it seems completely impossible for Lugft Huron to have won.

Especially once the Imperium sent in a 2nd wave of fresh Space Marine chapters.

Are there any routes at all that you believe the Tyrant of Badab could have taken to win the war?

Or at the very least achieve an armistice?

In the long run? Realistically? There's no way he could have won. Truthfully, the entire story was far overindulgent on the powers and importance of Space Marines, but even that notwithstanding, had he become any more threatening, the smallest fraction of the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy bringing its full might to bear would have crushed him utterly.


hence, as noted in another thread, why 40k is really Space Fantasy, not Science Fiction. The High Lords of Terra could have tossed 500,000 Regiments of Imperial Guard and it'd amount to a few hours worth of daily recruitment for the Munitorum, and seen Huron's Space Marines outnumbered 2,500,000 to 1 and crushed in hours.

Committing those kind of resources would have ended in disaster on other more important fronts though, such as the Tyrannic Wars. Imperium can't throw in those kind of numbers at will, they're over-strained. For the last 10,000 years they've been continuously fighting on thousands on fronts simultaneously. Something Huron was betting on I think.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The High Lords of Terra could have tossed 500,000 Regiments of Imperial Guard and it'd amount to a few hours worth of daily recruitment for the Munitorum, and seen Huron's Space Marines outnumbered 2,500,000 to 1 and crushed in hours.

Recruiting that number of guardsmen is not a problem - getting them to the warzone is. There's only so many ships, and there's a large number of warzones that could also use the reinforcements. The request for help is reliant on Astropathic communications and any response requires travel through the warp, which is at best unstable. Calls for help might take years arriving, the bureaucrazy might misfile them and if they do get up to aomeone with the power to decide it can still take years to collect the necessary forces and ferry them over.

barnowl wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Huron was arrogant. Really the Badab War started due to an exacerbation to an extreme of the normal independent streak all Space Marine Chapters have. Where it went wrong was when Huron was denied the resources he wanted for a crusade into the Maelstrom, he decided he wasn't going to put up with that as he knew better and started to take the resources regardless. This in turn had knock on effects since his actions denied resources to other worlds that needed to make their tithes to support the rest of the Imperium. When called to account, Huron refused to answer to anyone and eventually things escalated to opening fire and then warfare.

Ultimately it could even be seen as a repeat of one of the original issues of the Heresy: The struggle for civilian control of the Imperium and humanity, fought between normal human administrators against Space Marines deciding they knew better and refusing to take orders let alone be denied their wishes.

The Chaos Space Marines in the Eye of Terror can be seen as an example of what might have happened if Huron had won: a Space Marine warlord ruling over a world or collection of worlds as a personal fiefdom, with other Space Marines forming a privileged military overlord class over the normal humans who are exploited as labor or cannon fodder.

Don't forget in the original incident that started the Badab War, Huron was in the right and the Imperial tax ships were wrong. It was after that, that things really really went south.

Huron was not clearly in the right with the original incident. The other Imperial worlds had to pay their tithes and Huron was interdicting an area of space and preventing them from gathering the resources to do so. It would be equivalent to camping out on a public road and blocking it off.

Huron's fault was he felt he was above the other institutions of the Imperium. When told "no" by other institutions or when asked to cooperate, such as submitting geneseed for inspection, he refused and did his own thing regardless, even when this started impacting on others. His whole attitude was "You're not the boss of me" and the results of multiple actions taken with that attitude of ignoring rules and restrictions that others had to follow is what led to rebellion.

You have to understand, the success or failure of Huron's rebellion was irrelevant to the Chaos Gods. Just him rebelling spreads... well, Chaos.

That's why all rebellions to Chaos are ultimately futile. Chaos doesn't care whether you win or lose, but only if you play their game. Your ultimate fate is irrelevant. If the Imperium has to bomb the planet to oblivion, and the resistance is crush, it's still technically a victory.

Vaktath wrote:iIn the long run? Realistically? There's no way he could have won. Truthfully, the entire story was far overindulgent on the powers and importance of Space Marines, but even that notwithstanding, had he become any more threatening, the smallest fraction of the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy bringing its full might to bear would have crushed him utterly.


hence, as noted in another thread, why 40k is really Space Fantasy, not Science Fiction. The High Lords of Terra could have tossed 500,000 Regiments of Imperial Guard and it'd amount to a few hours worth of daily recruitment for the Munitorum, and seen Huron's Space Marines outnumbered 2,500,000 to 1 and crushed in hours.

The real problem with this is the laughably small number of space marines GW insists on. In an entire galaxy, supermen or no, 1,000 chapters of 1,000 is just not enough to have an appreciable effect, not when even the elitest of marines can still be killed by a comman auto- or lascannon. "Realistically", the Imperium would have hundreds of millions or even billions of marines alongside its trillions of guardsmen. They would still infinitesimally rare, but they would be common enough to actually undertake the missions GW portrays them in. In an alt-40k where a few million marines spearheading a planetary invasion is considered an average-sized deployment, Huron amassing enough to hold a planet makes a lot more sense.