Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

*warning - rambling about a personal experience with plasma vets but there is a valid question in here somewhere*

Okay, in the realm of Imperial Guard players I have heard a lot about the hotness of plasma vets. While I agree they can be devestatingly awesome, they can also be devestatingly . I am currently up in the air with them.

My main opponent is Tyranids, which fields multiple Trygons and other 6 wound monstrous creatures. Last game I reserved two squads of plasma vets in chimeras as a reactionary force to any tunneling Trygons. Turn 2 one of his Trygon's shows up and on my turn 2 one my plasma vets shows up. My plasma vets arrive on the table edge nearby and fire 3 plasma guns on rapid-fire and the Sgt fires his two plasma pistols (thats 8 plasma shots that only need a 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound and he gets no save - and I have 2 nearby PIS to help finish it off if need be). The result of the plasma 'to hit' rolls... five .... out of 8 dice.... . Now I roll my saves... they are wearing carapace to help with this eventuality so lets hope we lose only 1 or 2 if any... BOOM 5 failed saves ... they ALL die.... ... (And now the two PIS aren't enough to finish them off so we can guess what the Trygon did next...)

So, my question is, are plasma vets really that awesome or do things like this make them just too darn unpredictable? Oh and if you just think the dice gods hated me that game.... i had jumped the vets out of their chimera to receive "bring it down" from a nearby CCS, and the Order failed... so that's a failed order, 5/8 of my to hit dice rolled 1's then I failed 5 4+ saves...

Were my plasma vets cursed or just an example of the unpredictability of plasma? If they were melta vets they could have lived to shoot another round (depending on trygon targets). What do you think?

dice gods just hate you bro.....

The chances of rolling 5 1's in a row is something like one in seven thousand.

Bad dice. There's nothing wrong with plasmavets. Don't fault the unit for poor luck.

Oddly enough, I've had better luck with a plasma CC squad than a squad of plasma veterans.

It's one of those things . Your fickle 6 sided cubes of fate are made from hate , spite and malice . Buy some new ones !

One game last year I managed 20/23 hits with my Plasmavet spam army , rolled snake eyes for 1 chap who passed both his 5+ saves . Moral of the story , some days your the pidgeon and some days your the statue .

Fun fact: In games like risk, D&D etc. games where a lot of dices are thrown and a lot of the outcomes are dramatically better or worse then others the odd strokes of luck, bad or good, comes more often then they statistically should.*

What does that tell us? Humans are flawed when rolling dice. If you do find yourself on a streak of 1's I would suggest getting something like a backgammon dice cup to add randomness your dice throwing.

Only use the cup when you are rolling badly though. For BS3 IG that would mean that as long as you keep rolling 4+ there is no need to change it.

*Do not believe me? Find those players that are blessed or cursed by the dice-god and divide them on people in the room playing and put that up against a statistic of how often it should happen.

Plasma vets are fine. Dont let one or two bad games with them put you off.

The trick is that you have to expect to lose them. I consider myself lucky if a vet squad that started with 3 plasmas still has all 3 by turn 4.

That's why I run 3 plasma vet units & why each unit has 3 plasma guns.

Sure, some of them fry themselves, but it's unusual to lose them all in one go at the start of the game. Stick with them.

 Niiai wrote:
What does that tell us? Humans are flawed when rolling dice. If you do find yourself on a streak of 1's I would suggest getting something like a backgammon dice cup to add randomness your dice throwing.

Err, no. What it tells us is that humans are good at remembering dramatic success or failure and bad at remembering all the times when we get average results from our dice. There is no such thing as being "bad" at rolling dice, and all your rolling superstitions do is make you feel better.

If plasma rolls of 1 are the bane of your existence, try to have a CCS near by to twin link their shots, re-rolling those first roll burns greatly increases their survivability, much better than buying carapace armor.
Additionally, don't forget to roll each double shot one model at a time. One guy may get two burns on himself, while another gets none. (lose one versus two)

But on the topic as a whole plasma vets are the squads which reliably annoy/chew through any opponent, for obvious reasons however, if you just can't stand the burn out chance, switch to melta.

Hm, I never considered putting two PP on the sarge... Is this a valid tactic or not? I'm considering bratching off into Guard for some TEQ stomping goodness (read plasma vets/CS and a Demolisher Russ, maybe a Valk).

 Lokas wrote:
The chances of rolling 5 1's in a row is something like one in seven thousand.

Bad dice. There's nothing wrong with plasmavets. Don't fault the unit for poor luck.

vets have a 50% chance of taking a casualty at >12". If they're double tapping, that doubles. So 50% of the time, you will take two saves every time you double tap.

I never run plasma vets for this reason. It's depressing to have a vet squad and your CCS both flee in your own shooting phase.

 Testify wrote:
vets have a 50% chance of taking a casualty at >12". If they're double tapping, that doubles. So 50% of the time, you will take two saves every time you double tap.

I never run plasma vets for this reason. It's depressing to have a vet squad and your CCS both flee in your own shooting phase.

Incorrect.

Keep in mind, you can take armor saves with your Gets Hot! rolls in 6th.

So yes, you have a 50% chance of having to make an armor save in 6th. Which, in OP's case, he will pass half the time.

Now you're correct when you say that chance doubles when you double-tap, but the actual chance of taking a wound from plasma is something like 33% without carapace armor and 25% with it. So one out of the three times you fire your plasma guns (at 24") you will be taking a wound. Which really isn't bad.

Now if that 33% chance of losing one guy (or 66% chance of losing one guy if double-tapping) is too much cost versus the benefit, fine. I personally disagree, but I can see why you wouldn't like those odds.

Now, trying to say plasmavets are bad because once upon a time you rolled 5 1's in a row? That's a bit silly. That's like me saying that Haywire Grenades are the ultimate anti-flyer weapon because I exploded a Vendetta once by rolling three 6's in a row.

Plus, who cares if you lose a plasma gunner here and there? You kill way more than you lose, which is the whole point of plasma. If you can't deal with your models dying, don't play IG.

So how do you get a 50% chance of taking a casualty at doubletap range? 6 shots at 12in is a 1/6 being a 1, which is 16%, which is then reduced by the armor save of 5+ (so by a 3rd.) So that equals an 11% chance of a guardsman dying at double tap range.

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
So how do you get a 50% chance of taking a casualty at doubletap range? 6 shots at 12in is a 1/6 being a 1, which is 16%, which is then reduced by the armor save of 5+ (so by a 3rd.) So that equals an 11% chance of a guardsman dying at double tap range.

What he meant is you have a 50% chance of losing at least one from an entire squad firing within 12". An 11% of death per shot means a 50% chance of rolling a 1 and failing the armor save at least once.

No that is for 3 plasmagunners firing 6 shots.

 Lokas wrote:

Keep in mind, you can take armor saves with your Gets Hot! rolls in 6th.

So yes, you have a 50% chance of having to make an armor save in 6th. Which, in OP's case, he will pass half the time.

You could take armour saves in 5th, too.

A carapace vet has an 8% chance of taking a wound for every shot he fires. That means he will die 50% of the time after taking 6 shots. Against flak vets it's 5 shots.
For me that's just too low. There's still a 24% chance that one of them could die in a singleshot salvo, 48% double tapping.

 Lokas wrote:

Now, trying to say plasmavets are bad because once upon a time you rolled 5 1's in a row? That's a bit silly. That's like me saying that Haywire Grenades are the ultimate anti-flyer weapon because I exploded a Vendetta once by rolling three 6's in a row.

It wasn't the vets that blow up then run back, it was the CCS that lost 3 guys and fled. Fun fact - there's a 5% chance of your CCS failing a morale check if its plasma guns double tap. I guess in 6th that's not so bad, but if you're close to the table edge it's scary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Plus, who cares if you lose a plasma gunner here and there? You kill way more than you lose, which is the whole point of plasma. If you can't deal with your models dying, don't play IG.

If the enemy shoot at my Russes, it bounces off.

If they shoot at my infantry, the grunts take the wounds.

An infantry model with a plasma gun stands a good chance of being killed *on top of* being shot at by the enemy. It's like firing a Russ at a unit of beserkers that are inches away from assaulting you. Sure it's very likely to hit or scatter harmlessly, but there's a small chance it could land slap bang on your CCS.

 Peregrine wrote:


Err, no. What it tells us is that humans are good at remembering dramatic success or failure and bad at remembering all the times when we get average results from our dice. There is no such thing as being "bad" at rolling dice, and all your rolling superstitions do is make you feel better.

Actually I think you are wrong. I thing we are using two different versions of the word bad though. You think I mean that people are not getting the result they want. I am talking about having an dice throwing style that lets you pick up the dice and throw it in a way that clones the result. While I do agree that this becomes harder, or impossible, once the does so with more dices at the same time. I do not remember if you need to roll for each one in 6th edition like you had to do in 5th edition (or have many dices in paired colours) because of the gets hot rule.

Anyway, even if the placebo effect would be enough to let him keep trying out plasma wets with some quazy science in backhand until the dice good showed him some shuger I guess that is enough.

It isn't 50% chance of wounding.

For more than 1 shot you need to power them, eg the chance of rolling a 1 on 2 rolls is 1-(5^2/6^2) =69.4%. At 3 shots the chance of rolling a 1 is 42%. 6 Shots it's 66%.
To fail those wounds you must theoretically throw the armour save dice at the same time
EG Throwing a red dice for a single hit, then a black dice at the same time to see if you would have passed or saved the armour throw, but matched dice for each, so a red and black dice pair for each shot, where 1 black dice is linked to 1 red dice:
1 shot = 1-5/6*1-2/6=11%
2 shot = 1-(5^2/6^2)*1-(2^2/6^2)=27.16%
3 shot = 40.57%
4 shot = 51.14%
5 shot = 59.57%
6 shot = 66.42%

At carapace armour, to roll a 1 and then fail armour it's:
1 = 8.33%
2 = 22.92%
3 = 36.86%
4 = 48.54%
5 = 57.94%
6 = 65.46%


Just going 6*(1/6) will get you 1, saying that "you WILL get a 1" which just isn't true.

 Niiai wrote:
I am talking about having an dice throwing style that lets you pick up the dice and throw it in a way that clones the result.

This is nonsense. As long as you're actually rolling the die (preferably with a good shake in your hands) and not just picking it up and dropping it a couple inches the random movement of the die negates any effect from the roller.

I think my only advice here is to buy new dice.

Its not the dice. I've had the same dice since 2002. My main issue with plasmavets is the unpredictability game, not turn, wise. While even a BS 4 twin-linked gun may miss turn to turn, they generally even out over the course of a game (unless killed). The problem with plasmavets, in my opinion, is their penchant for killing themselves before they have a chance to even out. The issue in question was that the trygon could not assault the plasma vets next turn due to unit placement (he would have to attack a PIS, mortar squads, or the vet's chimera. Had the plasmavets merely missed, they would have been free to try again next turn. This is where the problem with plasmavets arises; they can inexplicably blowup all on their own, and never have a chance to redeem themselves.... The question was not whether plasmavets are unpredictable, any unit is to some extent, but, rather, are they too unprdictable? While plasmavets are very powerful when they work, and they work quite often, is their overall game unpredictability too much of an unknown factor for calculating battlefield operations? Are other weapons more reliable and thus capable of providing for more assurances in planning?

 DKokCommissar wrote:
are they too unprdictable?

No.

They're actually incredibly predictable.

Once in a while, one of your guys dies.

Once in a great while, due to bad dice, all of your guys die.

Once in a great while, due to great dice, none of your guys will ever die.

All for a weapon that can kill the crap out of anything not AV 14 up to 30" away.

Once in a while, your plasma vets will implode, like the example in the OP.

Stick with them! Also, use a dice cup because it looks cool.

Am I the only one that wonders about the idea of such an expensive price for 10 squishy guards ?

with all the options they have, you could (more or less) have 2 full "regular" plasma veteran squads

TanKoL wrote:
Am I the only one that wonders about the idea of such an expensive price for 10 squishy guards ?

with all the options they have, you could (more or less) have 2 full "regular" plasma veteran squads

I agree, I would much prefer to have multiple squads for practically the same price as one tooled out plasma squad. However, I do see the argument for one big squad, I just think it's slightly too risky for such a fragile unit! Strength in numbers for me

I feel your pain Bro.

Last game I played, I lost the role to go first. Rolled for mysterious terrain mine ended up being the I am gonna kill ya if you step in here trees, his turned out to be useful by the end of the game, we both had units in the trees. Turn 1 with night fighting my opponent lobbed a Lascannon shot through a ruin at a frikin demolisher, he hit it, penned it, and exploded it. My demolisher had a 2+ cover save... rolled a 1.

2nd turn had an astropath an two vendettas, empty one made it in, vet squad vendetta rolled a 1. turn 3 again it rolled a 1.

Despite all this I would have won at the end of turn 5. We rolled to see if the game went on, an it did.

Turn 6 he started to make a push kills the last of my terminators but at the end of the round I still would have won the game. Rolled to see if the game ended nope on to turn 7.

Turn 7 the plague marines manage to shoot my Company Commander in the head through a window an he he fails 3 3+ saves. End of the turn I turn my Vendettas around to snipe the guy holding my objective I lob 6 TL lascannon shots into him an only hit 3 times an then wound twice. He makes both 5+ feel no pain rolls an I lose.

So yea man I feel your pain, dice rolling can be a b*tch sometimes.

Franky I get most of my AP2 from my Executioner and my vendettas. I keep my CCS with plasma for rapid response but my vets either run with melta or demovets with flamers.

Cheaper, more reliable and with less suicide.

 Peregrine wrote:
Plus, who cares if you lose a plasma gunner here and there? You kill way more than you lose, which is the whole point of plasma. If you can't deal with your models dying, don't play IG.

this ^

 DKokCommissar wrote:
My plasma vets arrive on the table edge nearby and fire 3 plasma guns on rapid-fire and the Sgt fires his two plasma pistols (thats 8 plasma shots that only need a 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound and he gets no save - and I have 2 nearby PIS to help finish it off if need be). The result of the plasma 'to hit' rolls... five .... out of 8 dice.... . Now I roll my saves... they are wearing carapace to help with this eventuality so lets hope we lose only 1 or 2 if any... BOOM 5 failed saves ... they ALL die.... ...

It sounds like you rolled all your hits together, then rolled all your saves together, which is probably why you lost so many guys.

With plasma rapid fire you have to roll each guy separately because they can only take their own Gets Hot! rolls. This is actually more favourable for you because if you roll two on a single model, they take both Gets Hot! and you cannot lose 2 models as a result.

Basically with my vets I roll like this:

1) Roll two dice for the first model - 3's hit, 2's miss, 1's Get Hot.
2) Roll any Get's Hot! saves for that model, the other shot (if it's a hit) still hits.
3) Go on to the next model.

Unless you were REALLY unlucky (as in you rolled a 1 for each and every model, in each group) then you shouldn't have lost all 5 guys. I feel your pain though, I've lost all three plasma cannon servitors in a single shooting phase... but when they hit, Terminators evaporate! Personally, I think it's definitely worth the risk. If you want boring reliability, play Mahreens!

DoW