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So smash gives monsterous creatures cc attacks ap2, if I give a monsterous creature a weapon that is ap4 does the MC still make attacks with it at ap2 via smash?

Yes, as you have AP4 and AP2 so you have AP2 on their attacks.

You end up with multiple AP values on your attacks, both are used and apply.

However, having both AP4 and AP2 simultaniously just gives the same result as just AP2.

Yes, you can give the black mace to a daemon prince

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, you can give the black mace to a daemon prince

Yup and it's AP 2... only question is what about the Combat Familiar? is the DP making these attacks also?

According to the rules it is the model making the attacks, so yes he makes them AP2. Expect that to be FAQ'd away

nosferatu1001 wrote:
According to the rules it is the model making the attacks, so yes he makes them AP2. Expect that to be FAQ'd away

Combat familiar specifies 2 STR4 AP- attacks specifically, so what needs to be changed?

Well the question disreguarding FAQing in the future is... does the "familar" attack or does the DP? if the dp gains 2 addition S4 attacks then Smash makes it AP2. Yes the FAQ could changes but but still at 15 points I think it's fine.

jms40k wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
According to the rules it is the model making the attacks, so yes he makes them AP2. Expect that to be FAQ'd away

Combat familiar specifies 2 STR4 AP- attacks specifically, so what needs to be changed?

That you missed what I pointed out - it specifies the MODEL makes the attacks
Smash states the MODEL makes all attacks at AP2

See the issue now? The more specific rule in this case would override.

Following that logic the black mace is AP 4.

 jegsar wrote:
Following that logic the black mace is AP 4.

Not, it's AP2 and AP4. So you pick AP2.
Be familiar would be AP- and AP2.

That said, wouldn't the Hammer of Wrath have had the same issue?

HoW specifically states that it does not get the benefits of Smash.

rigeld2 wrote:

 jegsar wrote:
Following that logic the black mace is AP 4.

Not, it's AP2 and AP4. So you pick AP2.
Be familiar would be AP- and AP2.

That said, wouldn't the Hammer of Wrath have had the same issue?

No hammer of Wrath does not have the same issue.

"Q: When a model makes a Vector Strike or Hammer of Wrath, do
these attacks benefit from any special rules (such as Furious Charge,
Poisoned or Rending), or any weapons or other wargear it is
equipped with? (p37/43)
A: No."

From the FAQ.

Hammer of Wrath, like the combat familiar, has its own statline.

So we should probably use the Combat familiar statline that says 2 STR4 AP- attacks (Not ap2, ap-, like HoW specified AP-)

It is the least advantageous interpretation.

I meant before that FAQ, hence the "had". Sorry for not spelling that out - pretty under the weather at the moment.

rigeld2 wrote:
I meant before that FAQ, hence the "had". Sorry for not spelling that out - pretty under the weather at the moment.

Right you said had, sorry about that, I need more coffee...

But Q'As clarify, they dont' change rules (well, mostly)... that's really what amendments and errata are for. Neither is the combat familiar providing a profile for a weapon, it is explicitly specifying a STR and AP for the attack. That is far more specific than the smash rule that apply to all monstrous creatures is. Hammer of Wrath is another USR so wouldn't be more specific; hence, explicit language.

Except it applies to any model that holds the familiar, not just a daemon prince. The daemon prince has the specific rule that those attacks are AP2, unlike on other models where they would be AP-

I still maintain a specific type of wargear is more specific than a USR, but will concede that a FAQ clarification would be nice

Oh definitely - currently the fact it specifies "model with" would certainly imply that it works.

The thing abut this one is that it can be read as an exclusive description of the familiar's attacks. That the attacks are always as per the profile.

Since it doesn't use the model's stats and is unrelated to the user's strength I think it must be a seperate attack profile. Similar to a techmarine with a power weapon getting an attack with a specific profile from their servo arm.

Apart from "the model..." which defines it as the model fighting with. Meaning you then look at the Smash rule which dictates that the models attacks are always AP2

So would you allow the additional 2 attacks be jumped to 1 S8 attack?

Does the familiar attacks get the full benefit of smash as you see it?

edit: wrong S value

 liturgies of blood wrote:
So would you allow the additional 2 attacks be jumped to 1 S6 attack?

Does the familiar attacks get the full benefit of smash as you see it?

Even better, can I "use up" S4 attacks to double the strength of his regular attacks?

 Macok wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
So would you allow the additional 2 attacks be jumped to 1 S6 attack?

Does the familiar attacks get the full benefit of smash as you see it?

Even better, can I "use up" S4 attacks to double the strength of his regular attacks?

this sounds unlikely, the way the wording is I am sure it might be in favor for this... but I doubt it continues once an faq comes out. Attack squigs specifically say +1 to attack profile, these attacks if I am not mistaken are extra attacks or kinda like a little servo skull helping you out. I would allow my enemy now if they were adamant enough or more than likely do a roll off but to me... this seems like you have your profile and the combat familiar has his.